Just curious about Bi-amping

[Craig6519]

I have a pair of KLF-30's right now that sound awesome with my new ST-70, But the SS bass slam is no longer there, the bass is tighter with the tubes but not as hard hitting. Here's my question could I use the ST-70 for the highs and a SS for the bass? How would I hook this up? What would I need to look for in a pre/reciever to achieve this? Would the speakers Internal crossovers be adequate for this? ect.. Thanks

Craig

[Soundthought]

Hello,

You can split the pre-outs from whatever your currently using for the ST-70.

It will work just fine.

Just pick up a Y splitter and your good to go.

Radio Shack has them on the cheap.

Hook your ST-70 to the HF input and a decent SS to the LF.

Use any well sheilded 12 to 18 gauge multi-strand cable.

Be sure the binding straps are removed on the inputs of the KLFs before powering up.

Don't worry about the crossovers.

The independant networks of the KLFs will happily roll off any undesired signals.

Enjoy.

Regards,

John

[greg928gts]

I'm having the same dilemma with my tube amp. Great sound quality, but not enough pant leg movement.

I justed asked Al K about this, and he reccommended getting an active crossover to split the signal BEFORE it gets to the amplifiers. This way, the amplifier used for the upper frequencies is not getting the low frequencies sent to it, and therefore does not have to work to amplify those frequencies.

I'm trying this with my Khorns. I purchased a Rane active crossover on ebay. I'm putting a SET tube amp on the horns, and a McIntosh MC2205 on the bass bins. It should be interesting to say the least. I have concerns about added noise and signal degradation or coloration going through the Rane. But we'll see.

Greg

[Craig6519]

Let me know how it goes with tha active crossover. Don't you have to disable the crossover in the speaker to use a active crossover?

Craig

[AnalOg]

To all posting on this thread about more bass slam & the need to biamp, do yourself a favor, sell off the tube amp supplying your mids and highs & sell off your SS supplying your lows & get yourself a pair of Dynaco Mark III's, use the left over toward your rebuild. You will not be dissapointed. If you are I will buy them off of you for what you paid for them. Thats how sure I am you will love em!!

Tom

[horonzak]

Yes you do have to disconnect the passive xovers befor installing electronic crossover. This will couple your speakers directly to the amps. and will sound cleaner. BUT i dont know if the RANE was a good selection. If its a balanced input/output & connecting to unbalanced systems it can be noisey.. I would have suggested a MARCHAND-X9 electronic Xover.

[greg928gts]

I just got my Rane today, and I'm making new speaker wires for the Khorns. I don't know if the Rane was the right choice either. It was a cheap way to try this though, and readily available. There were 4 for sale on ebay when I bought mine for $140. Mine has the 1/4" ins and outs, so I think it should work just like RCA's. I got adapters at Radio Shmuck today.

Thanks Maron for the suggestion on the active crossover, I suspect there are a few choices out there that deliver a higher quality sound than the Rane. If this works for me, I'll be looking for a high-end choice.

I think we need to clarify something about how to do this bi-amp thing. You can't simply use a Y connector from the preamp, to two different amps, and then go right into a speaker like the Khorn. This will deliver a full range signal through both amps to the high frequency drivers and to the low frequency drivers. Having a full range go to the low frequency drivers wouldn't do any harm, but putting a full range signal, with bass, to the high frequency drivers would definately cause a problem. Also, the amplifier being used to drive the high frequency drivers would be getting the full range signal WITH the unwanted bass signals too. This would make the amplifier work just as hard as if you had the full range speaker hooked to it. In order to take the load off the high frequency amplifier, you need to cut the bass out of the signal before it gets to the amplifier, that's what the active crossover does. It splits the signal and sends the highs to the high frequency amplifier and on to the high frequency drivers, and then the lows to the low frequency amplifier and on to the low frequency drivers. Sorry if this seems academic to some, but I think clarity is important here for those reading this thread that aren't real familiar with bi-amping.

I suspect that larger tube amps would be able to give much more bass and impact, but those of us who are taken with the SET sound are ruined for anything else.

Greg

[Soundthought]

Huh?

Gee....and this whole time I thought bi-wirable crossover networks were engineered as 2 separate independant crossovers capable of maintaining a consistent slope in there given range so one could enable a bi-amped system without the aid of an outboard crossover.

Hmmmm

Sure like them little metal straps that bind the posts, though.

Good luck and enjoy.

[Johnny dB]

Please correct me if I'm wrong... I have a pair of '84 Khorns with the AK2 crossovers in them. If I wanted to Biamp them; could I just plug an amp to the input, unplug the top cabinets, and hook up a source to the the tops, right? Does that make any sense? These are the crossovers with the woofer crossover on the doors. Will there be an ohm problem wired this way?

[Soundthought]

Mdeneen,

Thanks for the affirmation.

I thought that's how it goes.

My fault for not paying good attention here.

For some reason, I thought we were, again, talking about KLFs and not Khorns.

I got the posters, Greg and Craig mixed up.

Oops.

Too much wine, too little focus.

he he he

I see what Greg was talking about, now.

That makes sense.

My familiarity with the filter networks in Khorns is limited but growing steadily.

Been reading alot about them.

Thanks Al K. and other filter theorists

One question.

Why couldn't one build a tri-wirable crossover for a 3 way?

Similiar in all aspects to a bi-wirable one, with the difference being the use of another independant network to handle the squaker.

Or is there already such a thing?

Regards,

John.

[Clipped and Shorn]

I am happy so far with the Rane AC23 electronic crossover used in a tri-amp of my home built cabinets with Altecs. Once I realized that the radio shack patch cords (rca to 1/4 inch phone) were all I needed all around, and that the information on the Rane website regarding cords was misleading (incorrect for my set up), everything came together. I have not noticed any perceptible compromise of the sound through this Rane unit. I am still tweaking. The time delay adjustment is particularly subtle. This home built system is so enjoyable, I am having difficulty finding a role for my old Cornwalls.

Presently I have the Cornwalls hooked up to an HF-81 recently upgraded by Craig. I am breaking them in, and also trying to break in my ears to the contrast with my great home-built system. So far the Cornwalls are best with small group jazz with no more than one trumpet and moderate volumes. Once you have the flexibility of multi amping with electronic crossover, it is harder to adjust to passives without that ability to tweak the crossover points and individual level setting. I am still experimenting in hopes of finding just the right role for these Cornwalls. I am beginning to see perhaps why the moderate volume Jazz/SET/Cornwall combo has been popular.

c&s

[horonzak]

RANE is balanced third wire is grounded. Unbalanced systems are not & ground is lifted watch out for 60hz hum loops. ALSO some of you are getting confused as to what is BI-WIRE and what is BI-AMP. In a BI-AMPED system you do NOT have a passive X-over in the system. The electronic crossover is placed between the PREAMP & THE AMPS then the speakers connected to each amp. Tweeter amp, Skwaker amp , Woofer amp. On the rane you need to lift ground IF you get noise problems. Thats some of the problems you get into when MIXING Pro gear with unbalanced home gear. AS for as BI-WIRE hook up I dont see or HEAR any SONIC improvement. All you have done is waste another amp with out a true audible improvement. Again be cautious in mixing Pro & home electronics. Thats why I suggested MARCHAND electronic Xovers. But if you want to spend the BIG BUCKS you can go to ACCUPHASE F-25 or KRELL or MARK LEVENSON. (used) Those are true classics E Xovers. Another classic would be a Pioneer D-23 or Nikko 23 if you can find them.

[AnalOg]

Now I'm getting confused.

This is the way I understand it.

BIWIRE = When High Pass & Low Pass at your speakers binding posts are connected to the same amp of that channel.

BIAMP = When High Pass of your speakers binding posts are connected to one amp of that channel & Low Pass of your speakers binding posts are connected to another amp of that channel.

[horonzak]

READ the above slowly it will sink in. BI wireing has no audible redeeming value.

[fini]

bzzzz..frpthpt!

[greg928gts]

The main reason that bi-wiring doesn't make much improvement, is that the amplifier supplying the signal to the high frequencies, is still being called upon to amplify the low freqencies as well. Then, when the low frequencies come into the crossover of the speaker, the energy that it took to amplify the low frequencies is lost as heat inside the crossover as the low frequencies are rolled off and not allowed to go to the high frequency drivers.

By contrast, when you use a true bi-amp system, the signal being fed to the high frequency amplifier has already had the low frequencies taken out, so the amplifier is not being used to amplify the low frequencies. The idea is that the amplifier will work less to produce just the high frequencies, and therefore will perhaps produce those frequencies with less distortion and be able to attain higher volumes.

I got my bi-amp system up and running today, and everything came off without a hitch. No odd noises (at least while playing), easy to set up and adjust the balance between the highs and lows.

McIntosh preamp feeding the Rane active crossover, high frequencies out to a SET amp to the Khorn crossovers, low frequencies out to a MC2205 and into the Khorn woofers.

I'm still tweaking and evaluating, so I don't want to give final impressions just yet, but I'll let you know. It is surely a much bigger sound and much more powerful than using just the SET. What I still need to work out, is if I'm getting the exemplary sound quality that I was enjoying before from using just the SET. I'll be switching back and forth for a while to determine this.

I am having problems with the SET amp when it turns on. It makes several loud pops. I'm concerned about the horns being damaged. Something I'll need to have looked at.

Thanks again Maron for some more names of active crossovers. If this works out, I'll be looking for a higher quality unit to try. Now I have some names and model numbers.

Greg

[Soundthought]

Bi-wiring DOES have several inherant benefits.

I challenge anyone to prove that it DOESN'T.

It's about time you nay-sayers cough up viable proof that it's baloney.

Congrats on setting up your bi-amped rig ,Greg.

I hope it turns out to be everything you were expecting and more.

Enjoy.

John.

[Clipped and Shorn]

Interfacing the Rane AC23 crossover (the model with phone jack inputs in the back rather than the bayonet connectors) was a major source of confusion mainly because the technical support at the Rane Corp. recommended, in fact, insisted on a particular patch cord diagram on their website (and apparently also in the manual which I did not have).

Rane recommends going to their site, under Rane Notes, under "Sound System Interconnection- RaneNote 110), scrolling down to the wiring diagrams and using # 18 to interface between a preamp with RCA jack to the Rane which uses 1/4 inch. {This entailed making up my own chords from scratch}. I found this recommendation not to work!, and rather ended up using the equivalent of their diagram #19, which is equivalent to the generic mono cords one finds at Radio Shack which solved the problem. I have no hum problem which this arrangement.

Hopefully this information can help someone avoid wasted time and effort when using the Rane AC23 crossover with home audio gear.

c&s

[greg928gts]

I did have one little glich when hooking my Rane up. The Rane has 1/4 connections, so I went to Radio Shmuck to get adapters. They had nice looking gold plated ones, so I bought 6 of them. The next morning, when I tried to use them, I found that they were so poorly made, that they were actually loose on the RCA end. There was almost no contact on the outer part of the RCA connector. They would almost drop off the end of my RCA cords. So I brought them back and found some non gold plated ones that were slightly tighter fitting, but still not good. So far everthing is working. I think there's just enough tension on the cords pulling down that there is some connection on the adapters. Just another example of Radio Shmuck quality. Don't you just want to go to the manufacturer of these crummy items, walk into the office of the CEO, slap him on the forehead with the butt of your hand and say "Look, pay attention, you are making crap, it doesn't work. Have you ever even bothered to try this thing?"

Greg

[Clipped and Shorn]

Yes, everything seems to be going this way. Most stores sell crap and seem to be saying "if we don't have it, you don't need it". I have slightly better luck searching the internet for specialized businesses which might have what I am looking for. Then when I find it, the prices are ridiculous, kind of a punishment for just wanting something reasonably good. This loose RCA connection seems to be prevalent and I am beginning to think that the whole design is less than desirable. If you find something that works these days, you better stock up a life time supply because chances are the next time you need it they won't be making it anymore.

Just try to find stainless steel scouring thingies anywhere out there? I spent all day yesterday tracking these down. Finally went to a specialized janitorial supply house where they call them Curly Kates.

I needed them for paint stripping. Meanwhile, I dropped off some other parts at a metal stripping service. This business has to be in another town since they don't allow it near anything. The guy at that business said, I better use the service soon, because he is being persecuted right out of business. In addition to big CA sales tax, he had to add another 10% Hazardous Material tax, and said he was barely able to stay in business now because of the over-regulation.

What a set up! He can dip an entire car into a stripping tank.

What I don't understand is how worried the regulatory agencies are about spilling an ounce of oil on the ground, but I never hear anything about the miles and miles of asphalt highways that apply oil products to a much larger percentage of the ground. There seems to be various inconsistencies and exaggerated misplaced concerns. Meanwhile many think every little thing is the "evil" and do not look at major "evils" which I see in the bigger picture.

fini suggested getting a bunch of strippers together and starting a strip club. I need to buy a big box of nitrile latex gloves.

C&S