Experiencing new level of detail

[AndyKubicki]

Listening to a CD of UK's only concert, I heard a new level of detail, that was a vocal harmony I hadn't heard before. Now granted, this is a new CD (new to my collection, originally 70's material) and I have not played it much yet. But this time I played it on my bedroom setup of the Audire pre, Adcom amp and the KG 4s through a REALLY cheap Panasonic DVD player. I think the midrange on the KG 4 s might actaully be a bit better for vocals, but to verify, I will listen a bit later today when Mama leaves the house at appropriate listening levels . I better warn the neighbors!

I have previously heard an increased level of detail when auditioning some used tubes. I played a record of Stephane Grapelli and Dr. L. Sabramanium calles Conversations and there is a tune where there is some guitar strumming in the background that was not recorded too well. It sounds like you only get the percussive sound of the strumming without the actual tonal sound. When I put in a pair of Mullards into the phono section, I heard a little more of the tonal sound of the guitar. Though a pair of Teles were not too different, I settled for the cheaper and more rugged Teles (someone sent me a bunch of different 12AX7s to try before I buy). I still think I will eventually get a pair or quad of Mullards once funds permit.

But I think that an experience of new detail is not always a function of better equipment per se, but each set has strengths and weaknesses, and that can determine what detail you do hear. There is also the ear of the listener and what the listener is or isn't focused on.

Comments?

[Mallette]

You know, Andy, your experience with the cheap DVD player underlines all the variables in digital playback. Given your comments, I wonder just how much more there is to be heard with a multi-kilobuck CD player.

This hobby always amazes me with the variety of experiences and schools of thought that exist within it. I can think of no other pursuit (outside of Christianity, perhaps) where there exists such a wide range of beliefs tied together only by a single goal.

Love it!

Dave

[garymd]

After switching to the 299b, I heard detail in music I'd never heard before on most of my cds and lps. Some more than others of course. What system changes have you made?

[AndyKubicki]

This hobby always amazes me with the variety of experiences and schools of thought that exist within it.

Dave, I'm not sure I subscribe to any school of thought just yet as I am still learning about this hobby after all these years. For example, I thought that the difference between vinyl and Red Book CD that I have been hearing was this: The lead instrument(s) or vocal(s) on RB CD sound much more in front, or louder (and brighter) than what's in the background vs vinyl, where it sounds more balanced and not so much "in your face". I originally thought that this could be attributed to the mastering. I thought that since these were remastered when vinyl content was being put into digital, that this was where this was taking place. But I am reading a book now, the Mastering Engineer's Handbook by Bobby Owsinski where he interviews guys who have been doing this for a while like Greg Calbi, David Cheppa, Bob Katz, Bob Ludwig, Doug Sax and others, and so far I get the impression that the mastering for Red Book is no different than it was for vinyl in terms of this perceive imbalance. Obviously, there were other considerations when mastering for vinyl, but nothing points at the difference I hear. I asked Bruce Edgar about this and he thought it pertains more to the medium itself, so that was a paradigm shift for me. I wish you lived closer to me so I can hear your system...maybe indeed instead of getting an SACD player I should get another PC and use the Wami for CD playback, but that would also require an additional investment on my part in terms of a better TT and cartridge, processing software (which I probably should eventually get for my MIDI projects anyway) and an expander...s$it, I might as well also get a DAW while I'm at it!

Gary, I started out with KHorns which I bought around 78 or 79 and back then I only had a Crown IC 150 A and a DC 150 and a B & O 4002 TT. Crown amp died. I then got an Audire Diffet 3 pre amp and an Adcom GFA 535 II. the changes so far- Dynamat and rope caulk to soften the squawker and tweeter, ALK crossovers, replaced zip chord with now green Monster Cable, and Goertz speaker wire. Replace SS amplification with a Scott 222D and picked up a cheap Scott TT (from the 90s). Also picked up a set of KG 4s and those are now powered with the Audire and Adcom in the bedroom. Also added a Marantz 2270 for hot weather and for the family to use for playing DVDs (on the KHorns).

[Mallette]

Well, you know where the Crown DC-150A resides now, and I must say I was surprised at just how good the phono stage is in it. Crown was always an overengineering kind of outfit in all regards.

Dave

[AndyKubicki]

Well, I'm glad you like it. That combo has served me well in the past. Speaking of phono sections, I need to see if I have one in the Difet 3...they were available with or without one...

BTW, I found another attachment for the rack mount. I believe I sent you two, but if you need another, let me know. It was probably from the amp. If you don't need it, anyone else who has a Crown that it would fit is welcome to it.

Dave, I was curious about your reaction to my experience with vinyl vs digital and whether you think the mastering process has much to do with these differences...

[artto]

Andy, you might want to take a look at this:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/121616.html

For what it's worth, I still use Crown for 'everyday' type of use. Those 8045G & 6340G for my tube amps are getting very scarce & $$$$ (although I think I'm finally getting to the point where I probably have a life-time supply).

Dave, the later Crown preamps like the SL-1 & the DL2 had even better phono sections. And the high level section on the DL2 is basically transparent. I've never heard it alter anything. Although I will be running those kinds of comparison tests again in the not-to-distant future after I finish my room's current acoustic revisions.

On the subject of SACD, I've discovered that my Sony seems to be much more like a (Windows based)computer than I would like. As some of you know, some SACD players seem to have problems playing CD-R, & some older CD's. I've found that 're-booting' (off for 20-30 sec.) the machine often clears these problems up. Interestly enough, I recently purchased Miles Davis 'Kind of Blue' (sounds great) & one night somethings didn't sound right. The imaging on the drum kit was all over the place. The mouthing on the horns had a peculiar distorted initial attack, almost like a mid or tweeter driver had blown. Shutting the machine off for a few moments & turning it back on cleared it up, just like it cleared up skipping on some CD-R's. On the other hand, possibly my player has something wrong with it. IMO, SACD is the most analogue-like digital to have come along. I hope it survives. What we really need is a combo disc with SACD audio & DVD video.

[Mallette]

I don't think SACD has a chance unless mom and pop can make them at home at a reasonable price. Otherwise, it's DVD-A or some similar scheme. I've not heard SACD, but I've heard 24/192X4 and it's even better than analog in the sense we have it (LP's, RR tape, etc.) in our listening rooms.

I've heard nothing but good things about SACD from people I respect, but as a "mom and pop" recording outfit, I need media I can work with without a second mortgage.

Actually, I'd love to have a SACD/DVD-A shootout. With the right material, my preconception is that it would be close.

Dave

[Terry N. Cruse]

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On 8/9/2003 4:54:00 PM Mallett wrote:

Well, you know where the Crown DC-150A resides now, and I must say I was surprised at just how good the phono stage is in it. Crown was always an overengineering kind of outfit in all regards.

Dave

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Have I missed something? Considering the company of the tube people here......

I owned Crown all the way back to tape. I dumped Crown due to the cold, harsh SS sound. Crown engineering? Big, powerful.... but Snappy, Harsh, Cold...unstable at full power. Very unlike the Mac & Lux SS.

anyone?

tc

[Mallette]

I've not heard Crown power amps in a long time, and then not on Klipsch. This preamp is quite transparent and compares favorably to my vacuum tube preamp in the phono stage.

I'm the first to admit that I am far quicker to hear issues with source material than with various amps and such as long as they are well designed, so I won't challenge you on this.

I've several phono stages, and my favorite is my Van Alstine VT, but the differences are not anywhere near as apparent to me as those of the source material.

While my heart is with tubes, I don't lockstep.

I am editing this to add my other experience with Crown. Their RR decks were close to Nagra in quality, and superior to all but the vacuum tube Ampex (350 and earlier). I purchased two 4 track decks from them for a company where I served as Director of Sound Production in the mid-70's producing educational cassettes. There was a static problem which I documented for them. They sent down the Vice President of Engineering and the head tech to fix it. They did, and thanked me for bringing it to their attention.

Yes, I am personally impressed with at least vintage Crown.

Dave

Dave

Dave

[AndyKubicki]

Art... had my Crown amp not blown (which was surprizing, after all, aren't they bullet proof?) I would not have ventured into newer amplification. But having compared the Crown with the Audire, the clarity of the Difet 3 is noticably better. Matter of fact, when I was comparing the 222D to the Audire/Adcom combo I would venture to say that there were more deficiencies with the Adcom and not the preamp. I may still one day want to check out one of Julius' amps. The man builds good products and stands behind his products. I have yet to do a comparison of that combination (Audire/Adcom) to the Marantz 2270, just not enough time. There is something about the Marantz I can't quite put my finger on yet...it's got great bass, but I need to listen to it a bit more to figure it out.

That was an interesting post by Doug Sax...would be interesting to interview him regarding a lot of things we toss around on this forum to hear what misconceptions we may have.

Interesting problems with that SACD player...though when I mentioned SACD I sort of had in mind that most newer players will be compatible with SACD, DVD-A, Cd-R, STP and whatever other multi formats they'll throw in. Have you compared SACD with vinyl?

Actually, I'd love to have a SACD/DVD-A shootout. With the right material, my preconception is that it would be close.

You would be da man to do it! I believe it would be very close as well and that's why I'm glad most new players can handle all those formats.

[Erik Mandaville]

Andy:

Wasn't Bozzio doing the honors behind the drum kit on that album? Think his entire drumset consistted of Roto-toms, or something....maybe I'm dreaming all of this?!

[JamesDL]

As for schools of thought... there are more in the saltwater aquarium hobby. I am not into that anymore (someday when I buy a house I will have a 1000 gal tank) but in high school I had a tank and worked at an aquarium shop, and I can tell you that that hobby is easily more frivolous and quirky than this one. Although, its only frivolous to those who've never tried it

[AndyKubicki]

Wasn't Bozzio doing the honors behind the drum kit on that album? Think his entire drumset consistted of Roto-toms, or something....maybe I'm dreaming all of this?!

Indeed, though I can't tell you which drum kit. There's a small picture and it looks like most are toms, but maybe electronic pads (?) and a double bass drum. (Did ya git yours yet??) I just got the two CDs (the concert and Danger Money). Love the compositional style of Jobson & Whetton, but the ultimate UK was with, of course, Mr. Bruford at drums and Mr. Holdsworth on guitar with Jobsen & Whetton...but alas, we only have one LP (CD) of that combo.

Did you check out Auralmoon.com yet? I'm sure you'll love it. We have very similar taste in music!

[Erik Mandaville]

Bruford UK was incredbile, which isn't surprising. Seems every band Bill touched was transformed into something unusual and good -- great! Even the short time he was with Genesis resulted in some fantastic music. Gabriel left (probably a really smart move on his part!), and so Bruford jumped in for a time before Chester Thompson. I'm so glad there is some small amount of what Bruford brought to Genesis on 'Seconds Out.'

Bozzio's playing is technically amazing, but Bruford is just so uncanny and thoughtful in his playing.

[AndyKubicki]

You're absolutely right! I actually want to call it the Bruford effect. I think each band he "touched" started writing material that had his sense of rhythmic quirkyness (he chuckled at that when I mentioned it to him at a concert). This began with Yes material and followed him through UK and all the rest. By rhythmic quirkyness I mean anything but 4/4 time, and if it was in 4/4, it was very synchopated...but not just synchopated...he would have a couple bars that were synchopated followed by a couple that started on the downbeat, then back to a couple more that were again synchopated...sheer genuiuos! I can't make up my mind about Bozzio..guess I'm spoiled by Bruford...but you're the drummer, so I'll take your word for it. Let's not forget about the incredible leads of Allan Holdsworth...he just plays these riffs that seem like they're not related, yet they are...also genious! But I think that the Jobson/Whetton/Bozzio combo picked up on a lot of this rhythmic quirkyness quite well, as Danger Money illustrates.

[Erik Mandaville]

Andy:

Another way I sometimes try to understand and follow Bruford's hopping about, is to listen very carefully to what he leaves out rather than contributes, if that makes sense...

I think he would make one hell of a ping pong player -- just when you thought you figured out his strategy, he places a shot in a completely unexpected place.

Alan Holdsworth is simply fantastic, and one of my favorite guitarists.

Ok, how about this: Does 'Brand X' mean anything to you, Andy?

[AndyKubicki]

Of course...Phil Collins in the drummers chair and not flaunting his popularity either...a class act! I only have 1 LP, but I would be willing to listen to more of their material to check them out more thoroughly.

Note on your Bruford comment...it does make some sense because he tends to play more in between beats leaving out the downbeats...sometimes. It takes some getting used to. One of my favorite drummers before I got infected with Brufords style was Danny Seraphine of Chicago. What a style he had! My brother had a band in the 70s and his drummer was as good. He would practice with a set of headphones to Chicago's earlier albums and he had it down! In the 80s, I roomed with a drummer who turned my rhythmic world on end. He was responsible for infecting me with Bruford and lessened my interest in 4/4. But it was not without resistance...I remember wanting him to play more like Seraphine...but I got used to his style as well...I wish I knew of his whereabouts today! Twas my only band experience...two live gigs. We also regrouped later, but that was it.

The live CD of King Krimson called DeJaVroom illustrates what you said about Bill's style in a different way; by having him play with Pat Mostoletto. Pat's style is more typical and on the beat and the two of them together make for some really great...kinda gave Bill a bit more freedom to get between the beats while Pat helps us common folk find the downbeat.

Now let me throw one at you...Michal Urbaniak.

BTW, I have been reading your posts about your amp projects and though I am not very familiar with the amps you referrence and rebuild, I am curious about what qualities you like for this type of music...