AnalOg Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Need some opinions. Will the conditioner benefit me as far as lower noise floor and/or preventing ground loops, or is it all hype. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 No hype -- it works. I use the stuff from APC. The audio stuff is overpriced. If it doesn't have a sine-wave rating it's worthless. http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SU2200NET&language=en&LOCAL.APCCountryCode=US Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 There are basically 3 different types of power "protection/conditioning", the power conditioner, a voltage regulator, AND a balanced power isolation transformer. It's very unlikely that you will ever need all three, mainly because voltage regulators and balanced power isolation transformers also usually incorporate some power protection features. Which units you will need depends on whether you only want good general protection, or you have specific problems to solve. Devices that offer power protection (or power conditioning) protect from potential damage caused by voltage spikes and--in some cases--extreme voltage from faulty wiring. Power protection devices do NOT stabilize line voltage. Low voltage or overvoltage conditions must be corrected by a voltage regulator, which uses voltage-sensing circuits and multi-tap transformers to keep voltage stable at 120V or 240V within a specified narrow range All sound equipment, analog or digital, whether for live performance , home or studio, should have basic protection against power spikes and surges, along with basic EMI/RFI isolation. This is essential, because spikes and surges can damage your equipment. EMI (electromagnetic interference) and RFI (radio frequency interference) will not damage your equipment, but can cause unpredictable and unacceptable fleeting noises and -- if strong enough -- ruin a recording or performance. Spikes are short pulses of energy with voltages as high as 6000 volts. Though they usually last only a few milliseconds, they nevertheless can cause damage to sensitive solid-state components. Spikes also can foul switch contacts and degrade wiring insulation over time. In some cases, with some audio equipment, spikes can cause audible pops or clicks. Worst-case spikes are caused by nearby lightning strikes. This type of protection is usually provided by a "power conditioner". RFI is radio frequency interference, while EMI is electromagnetic interference. Both refer to low-level signals picked up by audio circuits, either through the AC power lines or through unbalanced microphone, interconnect cables or musical instrument cables. Though neither EMI nor RFI is likely to cause damage to equipment, both can generate sufficiently strong signals to ruin a recording or interrupt a performance. Power conditioners and voltage regulators both usually incorporate EMI/RFI suppression circuits which keep such spurious signals out of audio circuits -- provided it comes in on the AC line. (RFI and EMI can also enter via audio cables , especially if their shielding is damaged. Power conditioners do not help with that problem.) Protection against sags and brownouts is provided by voltage regulator. I would be very careful with what kind of UPS (uninterruptable power supply as used on computers) you might use, especially if you decide to use a regulated power supply. Voltage regulators ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR FAST-RISETIME WAVEFORMS AND MAY SUSTAIN SERIOUS DAMAGE! In any case, I strongly advise against using square or stepped wave power supplies with audio equipment. If you use a UPS, get the higher quality kind that produces sine waves. The balanced isolation transformer (such as Furman's IT-1220) serves an entirely different function. While it does provide basic spike, surge, and RFI protection, and even advanced protection like Extreme Voltage Shutdown, it does not regulate voltage. However, its primary purpose is to reduce hum and buzz in low-noise audio and video systems. It does this by providing transformer balanced AC power. AC power that comes from the utility company and your wall socket is NOT balanced (regardless of how good you think your utility's power is). Balancing the AC power source significantly lowers the noise floor (typically 16 dB) and can make a dramatic difference -- particularly in digital recording studios. This type of power, when run around a studio, does not induce hum into nearby audio wiring, because the two conductors induce equal and opposite voltages that cancel each other out. Similarly, ground currents are all but eliminated by the same common-mode cancellation effect. Balanced power can eliminate the need to adopt complex and difficult-to-implement star-ground systems, heavy bus bars, and ground rods in audio and video systems. The best thing for eliminating ground loops is to have only one ground source and float all the other grounds in the system connected to it. This lets the ground current/voltage seek it's own 'level' relative to all components. Ive heard nothing but good things about Surge-X. MinnMale on the forum can get you a good price on them. In sum, all audio systems should be protected at least, by power conditioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted August 13, 2003 Author Share Posted August 13, 2003 Thankx, Dean & Artto Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 very good explanations artto!!!! for another thread about surge protectors..... http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=27742&forumID=66&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={27F62DD8-C9ED-451B-B388-AE2B9736636F} one of the comments that came up about ups units is that they can add noise into the system..... after adding a ups to my computer system that was located in my bedroom, i got occassional noise bursts in my bedroom audio system..... i ended up plugging the ups unit into a tripplite isobar and it cleaned up all of the noise bursts... all of my systems (home theatre, two channel, and computer system) are plugged into their own surge-x units on separate outlets..... as for "power conditioners"..... buy it from someplace that you can take it back if you don't hear/see any improvements.... but definitely get a good surge protector!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Thanks guys! This is of interest to me. I get a bit of what I think is line noise mostly into my Scott 222D, and a bit through the Marantz 2270. It's at differeng levels at different times of day. I bought a Monster (yeah, probably almost like saying Bose) HT 700 and it has not cleared up the problem, though it might be a tad better...but not gone. Is there something that will take it away? I don't think I would want to go the UPS route... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Andy, have you floated all the grounds & made sure the polarity is consistent from component to component? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Just a quiet suggestion, here... Floating grounds is one way of solving ground loop problems -- you float all of them, with no chassis in the system earth grounded -- you also could very well end the rest of your problems, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 the best low cost surge protectors as well as providing better noise reduction than many higher priced units are the tripplite isobar units...... up to 80 db of noise reduction... very comparable to the high end panamax and monster units.... for a fraction of the cost.... http://tripplite.com/products/suppressors/isobar.cfm#4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Well, Art, Erik, I'm not sure...the CD player has a polarized plug while the rest of the electronics doesn't. What I did was listen to the hum level as I plugged things in, but the TT was most sensitive to polarity. And when you say to float the ground, are you saying for the individual components or to somehow disable the ground plug on the surge protector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Art and Erik,, the only thing I tried was to pay attention to polarity and how it affects the noise. The TT was the only component that was affected loud enough to tell the difference. But I'm not sure how you suggest to float ground. Are you saying to somehow disable the ground plug on the "power conditioner"? Then use a multi meter to see if there are differences in potentail from chassis to chassis? Or is there a better way? Thanks Russ, I'll take a look at those...looks like there are several to choose from. And you say those are better than what I have from Monster? Well, we've seen double posts here, but this must be the first 1.5X post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Your system should be grounded at only one location. If (for instance) you have a surge protector or power conditioner feeding power to the rest of your system, this is the only component that should be physically grounded with a 3 way pronge. All the other components connected to it should have their third wire ground (if any)(usually green) 'lifted' or isolated by using a 3-way to 2-way power cord adaptor. The ground voltage/current will find it's way back thru the AC & 'seek it's own level'. When you have multiple ground connections, you increase the likelyhood that a 'loop' will be formed which will increase the noise somewhere in the system. It might be helpful to think of a 'ground loop' as a sort of feedback, which increases amplification, in this case, of line noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Thanks Art. I think that everything is floated...there were no plugs with grounds. Is there a best way to tell (on the vintage equipment) if the polarity is correct in relation to everything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 You should be able to get a circut/polarity tester at a hardware store. Radio Crap should have them too. Or an electronics parts distributor. You just plug it in. Looks kind of like a large adaptor plug with LED lights on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 The HT 700 has a ground OK light on it, but regardless of polarity, I have not seen anything trip the light...maybe it's not quite the same animal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Artto - not to be argumentative, but it's been my experience when working in locations where power line noise is a problem, it has been the devices that don't have a neutral ground (third plug) that suffer the worst effects of the noise, despite being connected to a line conditioner. I had to ditch a DAC box and use my AI3 in that capacity on one gig because I was getting horrible static every time I sent signal to it via the ADAT connection (never happened anywhere but this one building where the line noise was particularly bad) Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.