Listened to the Avant-Garde Duo today...

[kjohnsonhp]

I've found another problem is that buzz words start to get used and they aren't always representing what the word was designed to communicate....posters/readers may not all have the same understanding of the definition.

It's also difficult to describe two different sounds.

This is all interesting chat as I've found it's hard to audition the list of popular pre-amps for example mentioned on this board. Making a buying decision is based upon mags, posters, etc. All the factors mentioned in this thread complicate that shopping process.

I agree with the comments about mags spending a lot of ink "talking about their cats"...that brought a chuckle.

I do like seeing the pics, features, and sometimes I find some interesting comments.

Since October last year I have listened to a lot of systems in homes, stores and tried several things with my room. I've also read many forums and magazines. In addition I've spoken with reviewers over the phone, designers through email, manufacturer/marketers in person and life long technicians/sales people in person. What an interesting trip it has been.

The testing and listening has really helped in an effort to sort things out in my mind.

It is interesting to compare the enthusiast chat between forums.

Thanks for all the info....

I sometimes wonder if I'd been better off spending 2 hours buying the Tweeter recommended SonusFaber/B&K system and spending the rest of the year listening and doing other things But then I'd need another obsession like building that '32 Ford I've been thinking about.

[Colin]

Mobile, good to see that you are back, I for one, missed you the way the Greek Senate missed the Socrates gadfly! (They put him to death and then worshiped his writings for two thousand years.

I too read "novice reviews" with a jaundiced eye, careful to pick out the one or two words that might help me with their experience, mostly because they do wax so enthusiastically about each new gear they buy (as do I).

The problem IS in discernment, a different difference is often described as "better."

There IS indeed a learning curve to this audio stuff. Our ears are connected to the fastest, most powerful, redundant, personal, 20 billion instructions-per-second super-computer ever built (unfortunately, it appears that some 2/3 of its awesome capacity is actually devoted to potential gene matches with possible spouses, i.e., we think a lot about mate selection and reproduction - true). I think that

One-third of reviews ARE about the cat or something inconsequential. Reviewers should get to the point.

The whole review process IS a horrible mish-mash of variable and subjective opinions. Reviewers should try to compare one item to another in a closely controlled environment. At the very least, they should use the same music and movie reproduction system from component review to the next, along with the same music selection. One web site does do this, but you know what? It is kinda dull.

There IS rarely any synergy between the review component and the existing reviewer's system. Often more than one of the components is changing anyway; the reviewer is NOT even comparing the exact same set of components as last month. This change of components really does short-change the product reviews. It changes the dependant variables and skews the final correlation.

Magazines SHOULD have two or more reviewers review the same product, so we can see how their opinions differ. Mmm, wonder how I could work on this.

Enjoy the Music.com does try for some reviewer objectivity, in their score sheets. But here too, some reviewers still "love" everything they hear. Everything gets a "90" rating, except in my classroom. Maybe every piece of gear that they get is fantastic, but probably it's because they are too easily thrilled by expensive components or simply arent spending the bucks out of their own pocket, so it is easy to be enthusiastic.

Hard reviewers bite their own hands. When an advertiser sees your review can go either way, the pile of boxes at your doorstep reduces to a mere trickle and the components you are offered become names you have never heard of and accessories nobody wants to bother with (look for vibration isolation bearings from me next).

[Deang]

"We've seen some Forum members, who are still relative novices, wax eloquent about a new piece of gear they bought only to sell it the following month."

I don't know anyone here on the forum that posts frequently, or writes a review that fits this description. Most have 20 years or more of experience, and usually have the piece in question for three to six months before they sell -- which means they are certainly spending more time with it than a "professional" reviewer does.

[prodj101]

I get the magazines more for product specs and pictures than an actual review. I could care less what a reviewer says about how a speaker or component sounds as long as it sounds good to my ears. Mike, you are right that a fair amount of the review is spent talking about their cat, dog, or wife being upset with the new big boxes sitting in the dining room. personally, I get much more from "novice reviewers" than "proffesionals". you have to remember that if you are a proffesional reviewer, giving an honest review is not your only concern. take a look at stereophile. every other page is a full page ad practically. companies don't pay for ad space and go to the trouble of sending 20K speakers across the country only to have them bad mouthed. a "novice user" isn't being paid, thus under no pressure to make a product seem better than it actualy is. notice how you can go on audioreview.com and find many both negative, and positive comments, where as in stereophile everything is good. I have never read a negative review in that magazine in the 9 months I've been getting it, and I fail to believe that this is just because every company makes a top performing product. I think it's impossible to review 2 products in the same price range and not chose a winner. one will always be better for one reason another, even if it comes down to looks. stereophile is only interesting because of the ads. their reviews are always arrogant sounding and fake, I don't take them to heart. I can honestly say I prefer my 2.1 system to the megabuck system based on B&W nautilus 800's and VTL tube amps, and thats all that matters. "audiophiles/phools" can laugh and say "what would you know, you have klipsch?!" all they want, but I can still go home and find my system superior sounding.

[mobile homeless]

Dean, I am not so sure about that 20 years of experience quote. I would say that most of the guys here have just gotten into more quality gear in the last few years or so, or even less. They might have 20 years of listening to music or owning a stereo, however. Still, this doesnt mean the same thing as 10-20 years of comparing top notch gear under a variety of systems with a variety of music, trying to weed out variables. I really think this forum is one of the more inexperienced examples. But I find it one of the more enjoyable forums online for a variety of reasons. It can also be one of the most frustrating places, and a place filled with quick judgments and hard to displace preconceived notions that sometimes cloud the outcome or growth. This can really lead to some conclusions that arent backed by the most open ended mindset/experience. And this forum is certainly guilty of the "this is the best without hearing the other options" syndrome (or hearing gear under narrow guidelines, a real problem at times). On the other hand, this place has some of the best comaraderie of any of the forums online, something that is valuable as well in some ways. By and large, it's become a more open-minded place with all sorts of experience and input weighing in making it a good online stop.

kh

prodj- I have seen plenty of less than stellar reviews in Stereophile over the years; not all reviews are raves by any means. There have been some worthwhile reviews in that magazine off and on over the years from a few guys with good ears but it's few and far between(they all have certain bias and experience). On the whole, it has not been up to par but not sure if I totally agree with your take, including the arrogance aspect. I dont think the ads weigh in as much as you think, as well. Still, it has been in a backslide for years with some better and some worse parts of the journey. I have had that magazine since the late 70s back when it was digest sized with J Gordon Holt still running the show. Perhaps it deserves a bit more due, although it gets harder to defend. I surely dont defend it very often!

[hwatkins]

I'll put a 'novice' review here - admittedly so, but there will be no buzzwords --

An earlier post summed up an important point to me. We are here because our ears tell us that in reasonable setups we prefer the sounds produced by a horn based system. That being the case - there are a couple of very good price/performance loudspeakers. Klipsch and Edgar stuff are fine examples and are very hard to beat for the price. The nuances of speakers at 3 - 4 times the price rarely justify the expenditure for us...

[kjohnsonhp]

This concept of 20 years of experience is pretty interesting. If you had a job selling or reviewing gear for 20 years as your full time job then I could understand this level of sustained experience, but I would image our experience in this hobby over the past years really varies.

The internet certainly supports an addiction to chat and the ability to buy and sell gear w/o notable depreciation and giving access to a broader range of options. I can certainly understand how many have a renewed interest and increased exposure over the past few years vs decades earlier.

Those that have been testing, tweaking, and critically listening to gear combinations at the rate some on this forum have been evolving in a sustained manner for 20 years would be in an elite camp.

I would suspect others have had periods of shopping and researching followed by long periods of using a stable platform and simply enjoying while maintaining a subscription to the various audio mags over the years...or maybe forgetting about gear and just enjoying the timeless benefits of good HiFi.

For me, I went through the normal 18-22 year old male phase of being interested in stereo gear starting with the consumer grade stuff sold in "HiFi" stores, followed by frequenting the "high end" stores where I heard and read about Martin Logan Monoliths and other hot new brands and then lived with Cornwalls in college experimenting with Carver & Hafler amps, TT's, cartriges, and then the hot new CD player debating if this new digital wonder was really any good and the usual Klipsch vs cone banter.

Without the interent we chatted live over beers living in a house of about 12 students. My housemate worked at Tweeter part time so we got to do some tests at the store and bring gear home...this is around 1983.

I would say I have music listening experience but not gear reviewing experience. My DJ career was hardly an audiophile epxerience and my live band/club days wouldn't qualify either. In the 90's I worked CES showing off a new PDA and attended the High End Audio show. I mostly went home theater playing with Dolby, center channels and reading HT mags. My neighbor started a high-end HT store and introduced me to common things today like projectors, butt-kickers, Snell, Lexicon, speaker placement theories,etc.

I am proud of hearing more records and a ton of bands in the 1980's that your average bear. Unlike many of my DJ collegues I enjoyed a wide variety of rock outside of commercial radio and sampled every new record my stations received from 1982-1989 and dug into the vault for the earlier releases I hadn't heard. Even with that amout of listening I missed lps/tracks but working in MASS, KS, and CALIFORNIA I got a good sample. Having a roommate who played in a critically acclaimed local Boston band and a girlfriend that DJ'ed commercially and worked at a trendy Boston record store helped.

One regret is that I didn't go beyond rock. Our NPR station had a wonderful collection of ethnic, classical and jazz. When the VIOLENT FEMMES came to our station I couldn't drag them out of our jazz collection as they pulled lp after lp I had never seen or heard with oohs and ahhs.

I recall our Lithuanian music hour was rather unique and I'm sure there were other unusual gems.

[Mike82]

Kelly made an interesting point about the "experience" level here.

One way to help get up the leatning curve more quickly is to attend one of the audio shows.

CES (Las Vegas in Jan)- This used to be exclusively for manufacturers and dealers, but due to dwindling attendance, pretty much anyone can go. Last year, I saw a boatload of attendees representing Audio Asylum. And this show is free.

Stereophile show- )NYC in June lately). Also used to be Audio Industry only, but it's now open to everyone for a nominal fee

MWAF (Midwest Audio Fest) in Lima, OH- April. Open to everyone. Not as large as the previous two, but lots of DIY, Hi-efficiency, etc.

VSAC (Vacuum State of the Art Conference) in Silverdale, WA October. Obviously for the tube crowd.

There. 4 shows in different regions of the country.

Attending these shows offers anyone tremendous exposure to different gear, manufacturers, sound, etc. You'll even get to meet some of Audio's celebrities and get more exposure and experience attending one of these shows than 50 visits to your local audio shop.

[mike stehr]

Yeah, I should weasel over to Silverdale in October.