Listened to the Avant-Garde Duo today...

[damonrpayne]

Took a trip to my local authorized Rotel dealer today, who also happens to sell "avant garde" horn speakers. At $20,000 per pair, I thought I had probably better not even enter the room they are in. The shop is Audio Emporium for your SE Wisconsin people. Seeing what they looked like and the price point, I thought surely they must be some sort of ecclectic rip off.

The shop does not sell Klipsch, more of a B&W place. However having mentioned several times that I like Klipsch and the horn sound the owner offered to play a few things for me. A few seconds later I'm in the sweet spot in front of a pair of red Duo's while he turns up the volume on the Balanced Audio Technologies tube amp. The Eagles Hotel California comes on. I'm not even a big Eagles fan. My jaw dropped to the floor. The sound of the Duo is more amazing than I can describe. My jaw drops to the floor just remembering being there in that room.

This retailer sells speakers out of a shop specifically built to feel like a house. The rooms are just normal rooms anyone could have. The Duo creates a soundstage that is so breathtaking I just couldn't believe it. The sound was so "big", so real I get flustered just trying to come up with adjectives to describe it. The soundstage seemed to be above the ceiling; I could swear I could hear a guitar pick snapping-to after plucking a string.

I could go on and on, but the point is that if you ever get a chance to audition the Avant Garde Duo do so. I can't imagine what the Trio must sound like.

The sub-point is that horn speakers are where its at, and untill my Powerball numbers come in I'm glad I went with Klipsch.

[Deang]

How depressing.

[Mike82]

Damon:

Khorn/Belle/L-S owners need not dismay!

Before I give you my opinion, I'd like to cover where I'm come from. Audio hobbyist for 35 years and SoundStage! reviewer for about 4 years until I opened a part-time shop in my home for a couple years (carried Emotive audio, Art Audio, Audiomat, JM Reynaud, SAP, etc).

I live about 20 miles away from Jim Smith, the Avant Garde imported/distributor. At one point I was considering carrying the AG line in my shop. I've spent several hours listening to both the Duos and Trios at Jim Smith's home and also CES/Atl Audio Soc shows with different amps, mainly SET, but also Class A push-pull. Jim Smith's a great guy and one of the really honest guys in the industry.

Unfortunately, I wasn't as dazzled at the Avant Garde sound as you are. After extended listening periods, I just couldn't get excited about the AG sound. In all honesty, I could not bring myself to sell these to someone- especially at the astronomical prices they charge.

First, the AG is a HYBRID design. Not a true horn system. While the AG can play big and loud, and they can do large scale classical music and rock pretty well, they perform less admirably in other types of music. My biggest complaint is the lack of coherence between all of the drivers. Whether it's due to crossover issues or time alignment, etc., I found vocals to be smeared between the horns. The AG also gave the "6' tall head" on most solo vocal stuff. Small emsemble, solo piano, acoustic stuff, etc., all lacked proper harmonic texture. The new AG horn subs are their latest attempt around this problem, but the prices are ridiculous and they still have the coherence problem between the midrange and tweeter.

The worst problem, and this should be no surprise to the Khorn/Belle/LS owners, is the poor integration of the dynamic-designed bass unit. AG has made several attempts to alleviate this problem, but haven't been successful IMO. Basically, you can't get a dynamic woofer system to have the speed of a horn-loaded woofer. The same applies to those using conventional sub-woofers to extend the bass response of their Belles/LS. IMO, it just doesn't work, though they may fool themselves thinking otherwise. It's a "physics thing".

The same sonic non-virtues apply to other astronomically priced HYBRID systems, (Orion, Acapalla, etc)

In the past, I only ever heard Khorns with s-s or receivers, so I never really paid much attention to them. I finally heard the Khorns at Edster's home with a decent front-end and Moondog amps. It was an epiphany!

Shortly later, I had Khorns in my system. After all these years, I've learned horns rule! But horn systems can be tricky to get to sound right and unless you have large horn systems, there are insurmountable trade-offs in bass extension the listener will have to live with. Personally, I'd rather have bass-speed and coherence and sacrifice bass-extension below ~35Hz than poorly coherent sub-woofer bass.

The full-horn Klipsch is a fine design, especially the bass cabinet. The squawker and tweeter are very good, but better drivers will offer more refined sound.

About the only speaker system I would consider if I were to replace my Khorns is the Edgarhorn Titan/Seismic sub-woofer (which is the size of a refrigerator). This system is not much more expensive than the new Khorns, but IMO is a better performer.

Honestly submitted,

Mike

PS: the Welborne DRD 300B have arrived and are breaking in. I'l post my comments soon, but so far, I'm quite satisfied!

[j-malotky]

Damon

One of these weekends, lets plan a trip down to see Artto's Khorn system. Maybe Easy and Boomac, you and I could do a road trip. Then you will hear what Khorns can really do. I have never owned a tube amp, Im looking forward to barrowing Boomac's Scott and give it a listen on my room, comparing it to my SS Macs.

I use to deal with Audio Emporium when I dabbled in Maggies for a few years. I may have to stop buy and hear them.

JM

[Randy Bey]

Mike, I agree with you except I have never heard the AG line at all, so can't comment, but in principal I agree.

I still don't know why people dis the squawker in khorns. "Ear bleeders" and other derogatory terms. Mine are so sweet as to defy description.

[Deang]

'"...you can't get a dynamic woofer system to have the speed of a horn-loaded woofer. The same applies to those using conventional sub-woofers to extend the bass response of their Belles/LS. IMO, it just doesn't work, though they may fool themselves thinking otherwise. It's a "physics thing".'"

I don't agree with you.

The issue is not "speed", which has no true relevance. The frequencies are sent to the drivers, and the drivers either reproduce them or they don't. The "speed" of sound is a constant whether you are at 20Hz or 20,000Hz. If speed was an issue as it relates to the sound between say, a tweeter and woofer -- then all speakers would suffer from it.

The "problem" is one of sensitivity, impedance, and resonances -- and bringing the drivers into proper balance with one another. There isn't anything going on with the AG's that can't be remedied by a whiz bang crossover.

The advantage of horn loaded bass is that it increases sensitivity of woofer without having to dial the horn down. The advantage is unbridled dynamics.

Subwoofers can easily "keep up" with big horns -- the problem is you need a quad or half-dozen of them. Full scale, full low frequency extension sometimes gives the impression of "slowness" simply because low frequecies are made up of long wave-lengths -- it has nothing to do with speed. Conversly, speakers that cut off around 50 or so sound "fast" because of the absence of the long wave-lengths.

[Colin]

Thanks, Mike82, for your insightful comments. I too loved the sound of the Avantgarde Acoustics big ol' horns, but NOT at that price.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0203/uptownhorns.htm

I also love the sound of the big ol' Khorns, especially at the used prices these classic beasts go for. At first, I was dismayed at the lack of bass in my new babies. After a few classical and jazz music concerts (is a cruise ship a proper venue for serious musical auditions?), I realized that what I perceived as missing was actually a flatter, more accurate, more tonally true low bass response. My wife was overly NOT impressed, by the Avantgarde horns, but her impression is always colored by the price tag. Since the Khorn is a long term classic and is still available and since Stereophile magazine loves the Avantgarde horns, they should compare the much lower cost Khorns too.

[Mike82]

Dean :

I don't agree with you either. Your opinion might make sense intuitively, but in practice, often things are different.

If, as you say, the problem could be fixed with a "whiz-bang crossover", they would have done it already.

My opinion is based on my experience with both designs. Yes, Speed and Dynamics are synonymous, but however you describe it, dynamic bass cabinets and horns don't integrate as well as a full-horn system. My Altec Iconics are nice to listen to, but I have to admit they don't have the cohesiveness of the Khorns.

You seem to flip your gear a lot with each new item getting raves on the Forum. Have you ever owned a full-horn system?

[Mike82]

Hi Colin:

I initally had the similar impressions of the Khorn bass. My pair were made in 1985. Rewiring and adding an ALK crossover (w/autotransformer adjustable squawker output). allowed for a more balanced sound in my listening room.

IMO, they cream the AG.

Regards,

Mike

[sunnysal]

I had a chance to hear the AG dous recently as well. SO hard to judge a single component in a retail environment! even a great house-like one. why? well the only way for me to truely evaluate the AG versus K-horn issue to to compare those two speakers, which the retailers never can do, I would rather compare the speakers using my own upstream components, impossible as well. about the only thing one can do is carry around some CDs so that at least the music is the same. I liked the sound of the AGs, were they better than my humble k-horn system? I could not make a buy decision based on the demo due to the factors lacking/varying re: room, ancillary, equipment, etc. I will stick for now with my k-horns. regards, tony

[Cut-Throat]

I also went to Audio Emporium last Thanksgiving and heard the AG Duos and was not impressed at all ! I have to agree with Mike82.

The guys at the shop last year knew nothing of tube amps not to mention SET amps. My Belles sound much better than what I had demoed to me that day. Maybe these guys did not know how to demo these speakers properly that day. I asked about the tube amp - Questions like is that a push-pull? - I got blank stares! - What kind of power tubes do you have in there - "I think they're Russian"

Maybe if they were hooked up to a decent SET amp, it may have been better. The BAT did not impress at all!

The room was nice though!

[JBryan]

Thanks for your thoughts Mike. In the words of Tom Waits, "You must be reading my mail..." I've never read a review from an experienced listener such as yourself that so closely matched my impressions - needless to say, a very satisfying read. I've heard the AGs on several occassions and my experience was much the same as yours - especially in regard to the coherence of the drivers. Each time, I could discern each driver and the sub sounded like a different component altogether. I heard the Trios in a large room at the HE Show a few years back and walked all around looking for a spot where all the drivers mixed well but I never found it. The mid/tweet drivers are essentially a chambered cone speaker with a horn in front (hybrid). The AG line has its good points compared to horns (namely Klipschorns). It is much easier to match with other components and filters the noise better; it tends to have a more laid-back presentation and isn't nearly as "beamy"; the sub certainly goes lower and as a result, the speakers sound fuller. Of the 3, I liked the Duos best followed by the Unos.

I'm also looking at Bruce Edgar's offerings but I'm hoping to keep the Khorn's bass bin and incorporating one of his 350-400Hz horns and possibly a tweeter to extend the high frequencies beyond 20kHz. I also trying to keep the same xover (type A) with only minor changes.

Just wanted to acknowledge Mike's spot-on impressions and add my 2 cents. Thanks, Bryan

[damonrpayne]

I hope everyone understands I was not disrespecting Khorns. In fact, when I first heard john's system I thought the same thing "Wow, this is the best system I've ever heard" I will indeed travel far and wide and listen to as much as people will let me. For now I am still dreaming of winning the lottery and filling my room with these big red trombone looking monsters.

[mobile homeless]

Experience, exposure to other gear, systems, and setups plays a HUGE role here. This factor applies to the room, associated gear, software, music, setup, AND the reviewer/listener. I cant count how often this gets overlooked one way or another in forums where "type and submit" is equal for all. That last aspect is a great attribute as well, but one most read into all variables from beginning to end to make fair assessments/judgments.

kh

[Mike82]

Cut-Throat makes an interesting observation. A dealer friend of mine carries the AG. No so much because he thinks they are great speakers, but because they SELL which makes him some nice $$$$. That's cool, I guess.

Oddly, despite the hype the AG gets from certain publications, I can't think of one person whose "ears" I respect that uses them in their reference system.

[mobile homeless]

I can count the number of reviewers in whose ears, judgment, and writing I respect on one hand, this with several of the fingers broken, rendered unusable.

And Poor Stereophile, in an attempt to pull themselves out of the longest backslide in magazine history, signed on Art Dudley. Even Art appears to be bitten by the Stereophile jinx as well, his reviews seemingly losing touch with reality faster than Robert Deutsch can break, fumble, and dropkick another piece of gear (not to mention his text that followed).

kh

[kjohnsonhp]

I would agree that experience is important. When I hear a $100K system like the Meridian I heard recently or even the $20K mbl system I was playing at a friends house I am wow'ed...especially with good sources, great room and setup, loud volume, dark room and wild lighting My reference is my Cornwall/Scott/Dynaco system and the systems I hear in stores with the $4k/pair European speakers. I would assume more experienced enthusists will have different opinions. A little disclosure and reference certainly adds context.

I sometimes find more novice reviews insightful because some tweaks may be more important to experienced listeners and less of a value to a novice. NOS rectifer tubes in my ST-70 vs new stock for example. Big buck interconnects vs my $40 Radio Shack Fusion AV "highest quality cables".

I read the AR SP16 and amp review in Stereophile and it started with a paragraph or so about internet forums and users promoting their Manufacturer Direct speakers and how models get selected for review in Stereophile..specifically the AR. Other articles start in other tangents. I get bored with all the fluff. I guess I would prefer the newspaper style better where you get the theme early and the details follow.

What do you think of THE ABSOLUTE SOUND and their recommendations and recommended systems? I've got a stack of their mags from the past 3 years and the older ones really seem to have a price is not object approach that looses touch with my experience, budget and sense of reality. The new version seems to have segments that are more consumer grade which seems to be a gripe of some.

What do you think of their recommendations?

[Mike82]

KJ:

I don't really care for "novice reviews". Not because of any duplicity on their part, but mainly because of their inexperience. We've seen some Forum members, who are still relative novices, wax eloquent about a new piece of gear they bought only to sell it the following month.

The problem lies in discernment. To a novice, a new component will probably sound "different" than what they've experienced. Maybe it's an accentuation of detail due to an unnatural, tipped up treble or something of the like. In the case of the novice, this is something "new" (previously unheard), therefore it must be "better".

There's a learning curve to all this audio stuff. Some get up faster than others. "We have 2 ears and 1 mouth, so we may listen more and talk less." Zeno

RE: TAS, etc., I haven't read the mags in quite some time. I'll occasionally look at them when I'm at the bookstore, but it's always more of the same blah-blah. One-third of the review is the writer talking about his cat or something inconsequential. Even some of the webzines are starting to get like that.

I basically have a problem with the whole review process anyway. My primary concern is (in descending order of importance):

1- Synergy, or lack of, between the components in the reviewer's system. This lack of synergy can really short-change a product review. Also, I've found that the more pricey a system becomes, the more the critical the concept of synergy becomes.

AudioMusings has tried to tackle this problem by having three reviewers review a product and occasionally, their opinions differ more than one would expect.

Bob O'Neill, while writing for Enjoy the Music, highlighted this issue in his review of the Audiomat Solfege integrated amp and Harbeth speaker. It was an enlightening read. His review of the Audio Note CDT2 and DAC4 balanced in the current Positive Feedback also addresses synergy, but to a lesser extent.

2- The experience of the reviewer. Some reviewers "love" everything they hear. Everything gets a "100" rating or "Reviewer's Choice Award". Maybe it's by chance that every piece of gear they get is fantastic, but probably it's because they are too easily impressed.

3- Editors are reluctant to bite the hand that feeds it. When an advertiser submits a component for review and it gets hammered, often the review is not published.

[leok]

mike82,

With few exceptions, if any, we are all novice reviewers. The tendencies you mention are evident in most of our reports and discoveries as we learn to optimize the capabilities of our audio systems (optimize to the moving target of our own appreciation).

Still, there is information in a novice review as long as the reader knows the source is exactly that.

leok

[sunnysal]

I think pretty much any feedback can be useful. a novice reviewer oftens lowers the value of his review by putting too little detail into his review. it is crucially important ALWAYS to know what ancillary equipment is used in a review, some information about the listening environment and the music used. with those things specified even the least experienced reviewer can give pertinent, useful feedback about a component. it is surprising then how many experienced reviewers fail to put thier comments into context by giving out that basic information every time. what experienced reviewers can do that novices cannot falls into two areas; 1) the ability to compare a specific component with comparable competitiors and 2) use thier trained ears to focus on specific differneces between compoenents and elequently nd intelligent project those for third parties (this is often done with litmited success). my two cents yet again, tony