The Ongoing Pursuit for Perfection

[Audio Flynn]

NOZ,

I thought you had the Manley's.

How much are you planning to spend for those?

You could delve into the tube thing for much less.

I am not sure the attachment to the Manley objective; very expensive.

[TBrennan]

NOZ---If we only commented on rigs we'd listened to we'd have damn litle to talk about around here.

Besdides, I don't need to listen to your rig to know that small, long-stroking thumpers sound inferior to basshorns and large direct-radiating arrrays. That's a given with hornies, most of them anyway, except around here I reckon.

Ole PWK must be spinnin' in his grave, people usin' his basshorns with long-strokers. He detested such woofers and with good reason: they sound like Hell.

[Mike82]

Noz:

Sorry, but Tom's right. You can't get a sub (except horn loaded types) to match the speed/dynamics of the LS/Belle/Khorn. Hence my criticism of the Avant Garde in a recent thread.

You might think you're getting great bass, but you're really not.

Turntable folks can appreciate this. When you install a new cartridge, you usually have adjust azimuth and VTA. Sure, it plays albums even when not set just right, but when you finally get it dialed in, WOW!!!!, you really know it.

You need to hear a Labhorn or something of the kind. Try to make it to VSAC or mext year's MWAF.

[mobile homeless]

I have to agree with Tom and Mike as well. But there is no arguing that one can be happy with his sound and system, and ultimately that IS the most important thing, regardless of what anyone here says. On the other hand, when someone that has had a lot of exposure to various things listens to this, they will be able to ID the problem, perhaps with a frown or shake of the head in the mix. I have no doubt that the SVS sub thing probably works in the home theatre pyrotechnics world. But in two channel listening to real music, it strikes me as a possible sonic mess, unless practically tuned out of the audio path. Hell, I dont even like subwoofers WITH A NORMAL SYSTEM, much less horns of this nature. People argue with me about this all the time, but I have never even heard a sub that I would want to live with. I dont think it sounds natural nor an aid to the music (admittedly, fine tuning the entrance and placement can do a lot, but not totally fix the problem to these ears). But with high speed horns or single source driver systems, to my ears, it sounds horribly mismatched, not even on the same page. To be even more frank, I dont even find the bass of many speakers to be done that well. It's the first thing I will sacrifice to get quality sound. Bass is one of the hardest things to do right due to room, driver, box interaction. Perhaps I am more sensitive to this. Most people really grove to exaggerated, heavy, bass that sounds apart from the equation...or to the bass in a typical home theater setup, which borders on a theme park approach to audio/video; then again, I do love roller coasters...

kh

[j-malotky]

MH

If you agree with Tom, its time to sell your Cornwalls.

Tom, next year go to Indy and talk to Engineer Jim and some of the other right hand people who worked with PWK. Trust me, He is not rolling over in his grave.

JM

[dodger]

Hello:

Reading all of the above, reading all of the equipment owned (including me) and all of the equipment gone through, there is no striving for perfection.

We're just kids with too much money and time or we're just sick.

But Dr., Mr. MD can you tell me, what's ailin' me.....

Win dodger

[mobile homeless]

"Kelly, if you agree with Tom, its time to sell your Cornwalls."

Well, it's all a matter of compromises; just some compromises are better than others. And some thing just dont make any sense at all. Are you saying the 15" driver of the CW is akin to matching a long stroke sub to the horn loaded bass and top end of the Khorn/LaScala? Tom was talking about something a bit different if you read the text. Tom and I have gone round and round about many things but the value and sonics of the CW is not one of them. We are talking two different animals here when referring to SVS subs mated with LaScalas vs the CW as a system.

kh

[TBrennan]

Malotky----To compare Cornwalls to small-cone long-strokers is evidence of a profound misunderstanding of loudspeaker design on your part; I will explain. The Cornwall uses a large woofer in a vented box; the reason being to hold excursion and distortion down for a given box size. For a medium sized direct-radiator the Cornwall has high eficiency and low distortion. This compromise is entirely consistant with the philosophy of minimizing distortion; PWK's philosophy. This is NOT the same approach as that used by the makers of small, low-efficiency, long strokers.

Look how PWK chose to use a 12" woofer in a small box; the Heresey. In order to maximize efficiency and lower distortion he used a short-stroker and a high f3; hardly the philosophy of an outfit like SVS which would use a low-efficiency long-stroker and shoot for a much lower f3. PWK's philosophy was based on keeping excursions, and the attendant high distortion, to a minimum. The man's writings make this obvious, as did his dripping contempt he expressed for long-strokers like the ARs when I talked with him.

To think that PWK would have approved of using his basshorns with low-efficiency long-strokers is standing things on their heads.

[dodger]

Hello:

There are two (2) things to remember when talking about someone else's system"

1- They paid for it

2- If they like it and they justify the reasons why they like it, it's none of our business.

We can talk room acoustics, standing waves, furniture, room size: length to width to height, placement of the equipment, seating placement, hearing curve but in the end it's their equipment, they paid for it.

Unless the person doing the trashing pays for the equipment, there is no right disrespecting what someone ELSE hears for themselves is good.

Theories are backups for opinions most of the time. Stating what another person would say or do is mind-reading or using their opinions to back up one's opinion or likes and dislikes.

There's a way to suggest, or state I own this, it sounds good to me, why don't you give it a try.

Or the theory for xxxx is this- xxxx.

But I have seen theories shot to heck, 20 years ago few would ever use a six (6) or eight (8) in woofer in a high end speaker. Bass waves are long therefore woofers must be big was a usual thought process.

Bass Guitar/upright bass amps for the majority still use large twelve (12) or fifteen (15) inch speakers.

So though we may think a system is a mis-match, we didn't pay for nor do we have it in our homes listening to it.

And all arguments, theories, ideas etc. carry much more validity when we have heard, seen or done.

Knowing the technical is good, knowing people's feelings and choice is just as good.

Win dodger

[mobile homeless]

In the final measure, with the person, what WIN says is entirely correct. Some of the trouble seems to arise when people make recommendations or statements that their particular system is heading to perfection etc or is "the" answer, not just to their own ears, but in a more objective or general standpoint. We have all been guilty here. This is where the debate and system interaction aspect starts to take hold. And ultimately, I dont think it's a bad thing really as it pushes people to think, experience more options, reconsider, experiment, or at the least, defend the choices, especially if talking about obtaining results that would work in a wider variety of situations with more than one set of ears.

If we eliminate this kind of debate and discussion, then the forum would turn into a less informative place. On the other hand, preserving one's feelings is a balancing act that is handled better by some. Everyone can stand a fine dose of this, myself included, although I usually try to toss some form of humor in the equation. Still, this sort of debate, if kept on a high plateau, can educate and move people forward. OF course, sometimes leaving that plateau can provide mirth and merriment too, if done with wit.

Still, given time, contradictions are inevitable as is debate. I still think it's healthy and necessary. But Win's points are important as well, and for the most part, true in the strictest sense (as far as he knows...heh).

kh

[j-malotky]

I too like Dodgers last post.

It is a compromise. Who has room for a horn that can produce a 15 HZ tone! I for one don't.

As for my first post, I state I do not listen to music with my subwoofer. Why, my Khorns sound great all by themselves. I do admit turn on my SVS for organ music, having the subs start at 35 HZ only. For me this works great and I like it.

Tom, you do know a lot more than I do about speaker design, that is a given.

Sorry if I have offended anyone with my comments.

JM

[TBrennan]

JM----Well I've taken no offense. We're just talkin' loudspeakers here, bench racing as the gearheads say. I like to argue, it's fun, I grew up in an Irish and Jewish neighborhood. :-) But I let only political arguements get personal. Hell, how importnt is hi-fi anyway, nothing to get angry about, pretty insignifigant stuff, what?

[mobile homeless]

Hell Tom, I forgot! You are one of the only other loons on here that is not a Fox News lover! Along with Allan, it's a lonely time...

[dubai2000]

This forum keeps amazing me again and again. How do you know that the question of SVS or not is just turning in my head (LOL)?

Let me first say that I cannot comment on the technical side of the matter except by agreeing that most people simply dont have listening rooms big enough for bass sound waves, so a bit of active support strikes me as being necessary (if you want those frequencies).

I also agree that listening IS very subjective, so what sounds okay for one person, might not please somebody else.

Example: last weekend a friend came over to my house. We listened first to the Marantz/MX110 combo with the sub (Rel Stadium II) on, then without. His comment - with the sub you lose definition within the soundstage. My impression - almost the reverse. With sub you get a more three dimensional soundstage/better front-back perspective.

Later we listened to the Wrights. He is no friend of SETs, but was quite impressed by the speed and extension of those amps. What he didn't care for was what he called the larger than life presentation. This was/is due to the Sylvania VT-231 I sometimes use. With other 6SN7s you get a more 'classical' soundstage.

So here you go again: what I like might not be shared by somebody else. So give each individual, what he/she desires.

Just my $0.02.

Wolfram

[j-malotky]

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On 8/26/2003 8:30:46 PM TBrennan wrote:

JM----Well I've taken no offense. We're just talkin' loudspeakers here, bench racing as the gearheads say. I like to argue, it's fun, I grew up in an Irish and Jewish neighborhood. :-) But I let only political arguements get personal. Hell, how importnt is hi-fi anyway, nothing to get angry about, pretty insignifigant stuff, what?

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Tom

So true, also most of us who post here, even though we do not agree on the fine details of the components we use, still have systems that are probably 5 times better than anything you can buy at a so called modern day "HIGH END" self proclaimed stores.

Let me know if your ever north in the Milw area and want to hear my Klipsch / SVS Home Theater.

JM

[Chris Robinson]

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On 8/27/2003 12:17:12 AM mobile homeless wrote:

Hell Tom, I forgot! You are one of the only other loons on here that is not a Fox News lover! Along with Allan, it's a lonely time...

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Jeez, Kelly ... Who's going to bite on that teaser after the sh*t-storm that flew around here prior to last engagement in Iraq? Man, that "debate" turned hopeless in many ways.

[mobile homeless]

yeah, I almost erased it. It was mainly for ole Tom and Allan's benefit. Of course, you know it's tongue in cheek! I love Fox News! Al Franken is a clown, probably a commie; hell, look at those glasses! heh...

You're right, of course. That last political debate actually was about 50% of the reason why I left. It was beyond painful in all ways, and I LIKE to debate!

Let's stick to audio in this place. Hell, we have enough problems discussing horns/tubes/wives, not necessarily in that order.

kh

[Chris Robinson]

Of course I knew it was tongue in cheek, but if someone missed that and started piling on, I was afraid it would gather mass and speed ... and, well you know where that all goes. Down a rat-hole.

I've actually enjoyed the tone of the discourse here this summer. I think when you left, everybody took a chill pill and thought about things a bit.

Of course, I could be wrong... everybody makes mistakes. Speaking of which, I can't wait for that new Sony integrated to arrive in my office.