sunnysal Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 last night a good friend brought over his brand new Mark Levinson equipment to see how it sounded in my room, with my speakers and with some of my equipment and music. He brought over a ML 431 amplifier and a ML 380 preamplifier. we first set just his amp up into my system. and let her rip...well, I had to turn the gain way down on my preamp to listen but it didn't sound bad. low, solid bass, dynamics, wide soundstage but not too deep. imaging was good. sounded somewhat less warm than my dynacos. (my JFL was not around for the comparison, I will explain later) then we swapped in the preamp, I didn't like the sound now, kinda steely, very SS sounding to me. very detailed and transparent but kinda tough on our ears over time. "ruthless" was what my friend said. we then backed out the ML amp and replaced it with Leo K's little wonder...very nice sound, good sounstaging, good extension, could not play as loud but still sounded clean at all reasonable volumes. then we backed out Leo's amp for my Dynaco monoblocks, again we found an improvment, warmer, deeper soundstage, more listenable over time. lastly we flopped back in my preamp, taking us full circle back to best sound in my room. warm and good soundstaging, good bass (though maybe not as slammin' as the ML amp) and good top end. what we really missed was trying these two ML amps against my JFL PP amp, it is back in the builders hands after a power incident left it dead, power in salvador is very unreliable. My friend promised to bring this equipment back when I have my 2A3 amps back. to finish up the evening we took some of my music over to his house and reinstalled the amps to his speakers (Maggies, 3.6Rs) and listened. Sounded great in his system, great slam and bass, great soundstage (though I thought mine had more soundstage depth) and no tiring after a few minutes, these speakers seemed to mate better with the amp combination. Once again a local friend has brought his equipment over to help me/us understand more about our equipment. results: I am convinced now that the k-horns work better with lower power tube amps, when I have the JFL amp back I will bring all this stuff back for a final shoot-out. I am also convinced that system synergy is everything, his equipment sounded great with his speakers but not that great with mine. can I fault his equipment? it must be considered SOTA for SS, no? it just does not mate well with my speakers. did he fault my system? no, he loves the sound made by my system with the k-horns (he had a chance to listen to the JFL amps before the salvador electric company ruined them) and says if he had the right space he might consider a pair, then we laughed together about how he would have to dump all that expesnive SS gear for "antique" tube amps... many paths to "perfection" the trick seems to me to be willing to try many different candidates and find what works for you, in your environment, with your music. takes time, but it's worth it. I will let y'all know what happens when I try this again with my JFL amp, wonder if I will make my buddy a tube convert? warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 ---------------- On 8/26/2003 1:06:05 PM sunnysal wrote: what we really missed was trying these two ML amps against my JFL PP amp, it is back in the builders hands after a power incident left it dead, power in salvador is very unreliable. warm regards, tony ---------------- Oh my God, the 2A3PP's had to go all the way back to Jeff? I think you should invest in a good UPS unit ... There were some good suggestions up here last week about brands and models. The shipping to/from Canada has got to be at least a break-even for the additional investment. Sorry to hear this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 26, 2003 Author Share Posted August 26, 2003 such is life, no one can plan for the incredible power problems we have down here...to ease the blow jeff is putting in cerafines in the PSU and upgrading the PSU in general, so I will get back an even better sounding amp. I will, someday, buy a PSaudio power regeneration unit, meanwhile I have a new surge protector and inrush current limiter ready to go for the amp when it returns. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Tony, I agree with your comments. A classic example of what makes our hobby (quest/life)so complicated.I entered this BB as a very opinionated "SS oldster". Now I consider things. Bottom line? Write them a check and tell them to hold it for a week. Take it home and listen. Will it ever end? I dont think so. Wanted to get the 2-3 channel right before I got into HT. I guess I am doomed to black&white. tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Tony, Thanks for giving the P6D a run against the Mark Levinson. I am convinced the ML had two strikes against it: 1) it is scaled to deliver 100+ Watts which means the first Watt is compromised, and 2) direct coupled ss is not a way to achieve low distortion at low power. The P6D was designed with sub-Watt low distortion in mind. I have resisted going to 20 Watts because I don't want to compromise the first Watt. Klipsch owners should look for amps made to drive efficient Horn Speakers. With the pp rebuild: I know Jeff will deliver. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 ---------------- On 8/26/2003 8:54:11 PM leok wrote: Tony, Thanks for giving the P6D a run against the Mark Levinson. I am convinced the ML had two strikes against it: 1) it is scaled to deliver 100+ Watts which means the first Watt is compromised, (depending on the quality of the SS amps that you are using) and 2) direct coupled ss is not a way to achieve low distortion at low power. ( Who asked for low power?) ( and Tony runs S.M's lovely 7-T SS preamp W/ Mods) The P6D was designed with sub-Watt low distortion in mind. I have resisted going to 20 Watts because I don't want to compromise the first Watt. ( so we should not consider anything from 2w to 420w?) Jim T...can you help with a Mac SS testimony? Dean, you owned M-117s. How about that first Watt? ....Just an atempt to stir things up ...the BB has become a bit tame lately.....Terry N. Cruse Klipsch owners should look for amps made to drive efficient Horn Speakers. With the pp rebuild: I know Jeff will deliver. leok ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 27, 2003 Author Share Posted August 27, 2003 stir baby stir! Terry, I have NO DOUBT that JFLs PP amp will stay in my system for many years, it sounded SO GOOD in there that I cannot imagine wanting anything else. I even lost all my steam in my Preamp search just because it sounds so good just as it is. Leo´s amp is really amazing, it does sound great paired with the k-horns, better than the other SS amps I have tried, about the only thing it cannot do is head banging level (it runs out of steam), I like the way my McIntosh integrated amp (MA6400) sounds in the system as well (though it lives in my bedroom system now), it has tremendous slam and transparancy, it is just too powerful for the k-horns, I cannot get good volume adjustment with its volume control and it did tend to wear me out in long listening sessions, glare? who knows. I cannot believe how much I like my Marantz 7T, another possiblity in the preamp search should be to continue the mods to that pre, add a remote volume control and swap out the resisitors in the tone controls, etc. I do not get tired of the 2A3 PP amp. warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Tony, what music do you listen to and at what volume? I know you love the solid state Marantz 7T but I will almost totally guarantee that a switch to a high quality tube preamp would make your head rotate on its axis in that good way only a full rotation can bring! I cant tell you how much I think a good tube preamp beats out 99.9% of any of the solid state preamps I have heard, this from the best makes, old and new. I have not heard the 7T however. But I have heard so many SS preamps, too many to list. I have either owned or auditioned solid state units from Threshold, PASS Labs, Goldmund, Classe, Krell, Mark Levinson, YBA, Superphon, MOD SQUAD, SUMO, B&K, ADCOM, PS Audio, Proceed, Creek, ...lordy, I cant even recall them all. And to be sure, there are some good ones on the list, some better than others, some I could live with. But when I really started experiencing the better tube preamps, I realized that most, if not ALL of the solid state units were just not getting the total harmonic structure of the reproduction intact, some missing the boat entirely here. The solid state active line stage tended to do more harm than good, this even from the GREAT ones. This is a reason I started turning to the passive solution in the 80s. I had some more vintage tube preamps in my system earlier, but they tended to be more noisy and slightly thick sounding, although more harmonically full and alive. No matter how good the SS unit, the preamp added some sense of flattening or etching. It is the subtle etching that I fell almost all SS preamps do to some extent. And NONE OF THEM I have heard have the bloom and naturalness of the GOOD tube preamp. Again, there are great qualities to the better units, but the natural decay, bloom, and sense of harmonic richness/life is just absent for thte most part. I have not heard an active SS line stage that I would take at this time. The low level signals seem to be easily affected from SS pre amplification. I dont know what top quality tube preamps you have heard in your system but you owe it to yourself and your ears to give some a try. It's too bad you have the heavy restrictions on the needs because this knocks out quite a few options. But I think a turn this toward the tube pre will bring your system up a major notch. It sure did mine, no matter WHAT I had it hooked to. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 27, 2003 Author Share Posted August 27, 2003 sounds rather like an "exorcist" experience rather than an audio epiphany! As far as hearing tubes, I have had two cary preamps, a sonic frontiers and an antique sound lab unit in my system. that listening was done with my dynaco amps not the new JFL amp. they each sounded different, all showed some of the tube family values, but to me all kinda rolled off and lacking in detail. I am sure that I can find one that matches perfectly with my system...in time. I do plan, over time, to listen to a variety of SS and tube preamps with the JFL amp (thanks to the local audio nuts here in san salvador who love to swap components, anything for a free bottle of wine!) before deciding. right now the marantz has the upper hand in my system versus those mentioned tube pres and some very good SS (like the ML mentioned), that very well may change when paired with the JFL and compared again. ah...the fun of the hobby side... re: music, as you know almost all listening is done to CDs, I play a rather even mix of jazz (coltrane, miles, monk, etc.) and progressive (if that is the correct title for counting crows, train, tracy chapman, etc.) a lot of classic rock (santana, stones, beatles, etc.) some pop/soul/funk (j.brown, lisa stansfield, sade, etc.) some classical (prokofiev, beethoven, wagner) you know, "eclectic" LOL volume? well loud if the kids and wife are not home...about 2 hours a week, the rest of the time (9 more hours a week) it has to be played at civilized volumes to not drown out the tv in the other room, etc. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 The Marantz 7T was without a doubt the first decent sounding solid-state preamp ever made--Marantz figured out how to do this long before McIntosh, Fisher, HK, and the other heavy hitters in the late 1960s. Marantz marketed the 7T along side the 7C (considered by many to be the best tube stereo preamp ever) for a while and sold them for about the same price. They sound remarkably similar (or at least they did to me some 20-odd years ago when I had a chance to compare them), as the 7T is not "SS" sounding at all, none of the steeliness that early "high end" preamps (such as the dreadful McIntsoh C-24)were so famous for. I think that is why it mates so well to tube amps and horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Interesting. BTW, many tube companies ripped off the Marantz 7C circuit and put it under their own name with just some minor changes. I cant imagine the 7T to sound like the 7C... PEhaps, but after hearing that and the several tube preamps that took the same basic circuit, i dont see how ANY SS unit could sound the same. EDIT: Tony, where so you have the controls/filters set? Perhaps the 7T is all alone, an amazing feat (you dont hear a ton about this pre), but damn if I havent tried the SS option out to an extent not matched by many. Between my father and I, we had about the whole damn lineup covered! I think the SS line stage has done nothing BUT get better since the early days, however. Do you think the top end might just be more etched and slightly more defined than natural? I found some of the best SS units DID have more apparent detail in the top end but not "see thru" open detail that is more natural. I find the top end exaggerated and a bit hyped, even with the best stages. There is something slightly artificial here. If you did try the Cary units, did you do any tube swapping? Again, this is very important to me. Mediocre tubes in the preamp can bring it to pedestrian levels. Hope you get lent some good units in the upcoming months. I also hope that someday you get to hear a high quality SET in your system, this mated with a good tube pre. A solid state preamp near DESTROYS the advantages of the SET option, at least in every application I have heard (besides the Passive, which is not the ultimate solution with SET either, in my view). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 27, 2003 Author Share Posted August 27, 2003 ANSWER TO EDIT FOR KELLY: CONTROLS ARE NORMALLY SET FLAT ON PREAMP, BUT ONCE IN A WHILE THE BASS CONTROLS GET A ONE OR TWO NOTCH BOOST WHEN THE MUSIC REQUIRES IT, VERY RARELY THE TREBLE WILL GET A ONE NOTCH TURN-DOWN FOR A DISK. re: tube rolling, the pres had thier tubes rolled by owners...but, as always, tube rollinig is system dependant as well, don't you think kelly? if someone has great results with brand/year X in his preamp in his sytem, I am sure it will not have exactly the same effect in the same model preamp in another system. tube rolling seems to me to be entirely system specific. my choice of 6SN7 input tubes initially were based on recommendations from AA members, etc. but I found that I had to listen to a variety of tubes in my amp, in my system to decide, and my choices rarely coincided with the recommendations. live and learn I have a lot of big buck tubes that do not give up the goods in my system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I agree with the tube comment to a certain extent but usually only in as much as comparing and decribing tubes in and of themselves without relaying the gear it's used in. On the whole, I have found recommendations to be worthy if in the SAME piece of gear, this from those whose ears you actually trust. Some people recommend all sorts of things. The VT-231 6SN7 gets recommended all the time but I havent liked it in my gear. Tubes do come into their own at certain operating points, which is why some recs across the board dont always work. Which Cary preamps did you audition and do you remember the tubes? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 First double post for me ever... hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Hey Tony, Before you go into the preamp route, try the type A networks and you won't believe what you've been missing and how much more details are there. If you won't be satisfied, I will be willing to buy the parts from you. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 27, 2003 Author Share Posted August 27, 2003 Guy, yeah I have type A's on my list. I have the schematic and a parts list but have not gotten around to ordering and bulding. too little free time for the project, I have to find someone who wants to build them for me...once I asked randy bey about it but he didn't show any interest...anyone out there interested? mail me. kelly, one was a very new (2001?) cary slp-98L, I remember that the guy had tube rolled around that unit and ended up right back to cary's stock tubes (I cannot remember the brands now), the other was a slp-94 from the mid to late 90's the guy had 12AU7s from mullard (ecc82?) in there he had just settled on them after having telefunkens for a few years. anyway they sounded a little rounded off on top and bloated compared to my marantz. I will have to wait to judge this issue until I have JFLs amp back in. I have no illusions that my Marantz is the equal of SOTA preamps BUT to date it has sounded better than all comers in my system. when I hear something better I will switch. I would love to hear Jeff's pre in my system. Regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Tony, Do you still keep your old networks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I was wondering the same thing. IF he kept the old ones, this mod would be not only very simple, but not too expensive either, relatively speaking that is (this depending on your selections). Some prefer the film approach to the caps while I have been preferring the oils. There is much debate here. I dont think those that dislike oils for their measurements have listened to them done properly. Here are TWO top notch versions of the Type A crossover network. http://www.progressive-engineering.com/klipsch/guy_type_a_rev1.jpg http://www.progressive-engineering.com/klipsch/lion_type_a.jpg kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 27, 2003 Author Share Posted August 27, 2003 yes I kept the old ones, but the coils are crappy and so are the caps, I assumed that to get any benefit I would have to forget about them. the ALK's have nice coils and decent caps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 What happened to the coils and caps? My Type B in the 77 CW is still flying strong and sounds GREAT, despite the grumblings from all around. http://www.progressive-engineering.com/klipsch/type_b.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.