Welborne DRD 300B- early impressions

[sfogg]

" Well I didn't get a tape measure out a measure the room !"

No, but you said ' a strong solid well rounded system can overcome room acoustics with relative ease...' which is just very naive with regards to the rooms effect on the sound you hear. The room is probably the #1 influence in the sound you hear... even more so then the speakers you are listening to. Far more so then the type of amp used or the tubes in it or whatever. If you doubt it take your speakers outside away from walls and listen to them for a few hours, they are going to sound dramatically different.

Say the room was 12x12x8... that works out to having a suckout of around 20-25dB centered a little over 63hz. Doesn't matter what speakers you use, doesn't matter what amp... or cables... or anything else.... that is simply one of the things that specific room is going to do to the sound.

Bad gear or fantastic gear... makes no difference to the room.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Of coarse this is all according to you heh!! What are you a rocket scientist? If you had any clue how bad the system in question sounded you would understand the point I'm trying to make. I guess I will have to spell it out real slow for you.

If you were to take two sets of amplifiers ....... are you with me so far? One amplifier that strolls thru transients and bass reproduction with ease .... still with me ?? the other amplifier is under constant strain and in doing so has loose bass and moderate transients ..... are you still with me ?? Now place both these setups in the same bad acoustic situation with all other things being equal and which would sound better ??? Still with me ???? I can bet you a dime to a dollar the first amp would still sound presentable although not at its best. The second would end up with its weakness manifested in a horrible way which is exactly the case here.

Now by the same token I will not rule out the fact the second amplifier may very well sound better than amplifier one in the perfect room in its best operating range. But who has the perfect room ?

Craig

What is the amp in question has the serious problem at 63 hz ???

[leok]

Mike,

Thanks for the comments on the review .. also congratulations on making a good decision on the amp in the first place. The DRD design is interesting.

leok

[sfogg]

Craig,

"Of coarse this is all according to you heh!!"

There are literally hundreds of articles about the effects your room has on how it alters the reproduction (and perception) of sound in your room. There are dozens of programs that can calculate the different modes of a room.

"What are you a rocket scientist?"

Wave physics, specifically standing waves, is taught in high school physics.

"I guess I will have to spell it out real slow for you. "

So you took another amp and tried it in the same room that the first amp sounded bad in?

No, you didn't. End of story.

All the what ifs you want to put forward don't change that. It also doesn't change the fact that you said good equipment can overcome a bad room, it can't. The room will influence good equipment the same as it will bad equipment. Or that a 12x12 room is anything but 'simple.'

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Okay so your saying that in certain rooms no matter what you do no matter what amp you put in the its going to sound like sh!t !! Please make some sense !

Craig

[Audio Flynn]

If I can get great sound out of my wreck of a shop down the basement then I assure you I could set my system up in any room that was there and get better then my basement.

I personally would like to take a few hours and dampen the HVAC duct work.

-------------------

In my 2 channel room I have an antique piano to the near right of the Chorus II and paneling to the left of the other speaker.

Nice curtains in the large window behind.

In 5 different amps since 10-02 I have not moved the speakers.

They are not perfectly symetrical in placement.

The room furnishings are not symetrical.

It makes no difference.

My room is not extreme, and the speakers are not folded horns or ported. Passive radiator makes some things less complex.

--------------------

I have heard a 300B into R-7 and also the Moth Audio single driver. It was this guys 4th build with this tube.

Quite impressive but not enough listening time to describe intelligently.

[Deang]

Yo Craig, not everyone is out to get you -- just Guy, Edmond, and Ryan.

I can relate to where both of you are coming from.

A system may not be able to "overcome" a bad room, but if the system is relatively neutral, the speakers are under decent control, and most importantly, are being pushed by an amp that's not tracking the impedance curve of the speaker -- will definitely sound better in a hellish room than a system with underdamped bass, and a treble being pushed hither and yon because of an overly-reactive amplifer. It's also more than possible that a given room might further exasperate the problems of the latter system. Extremely sensitive systems are...well...more sensitive.

It's really more than just the room too. In fact, the size of the speaker cabinet, the amount of drivers involved, and their configuraton in the cabinet -- all influence in-room frequency response.

[mobile homeless]

I think there are MANY MANY more things that affect a system's sound with the room being one of the very large contributing factors that sometimes cant be overcome. System synergy, component selection, electricity, RFI, the setup, layout, stands, wiring, etc all contribute. And it is one's attention to the little details that bring the system to the last level of achievement. There are a host of things at a show that provide a bad environment. Mike actually ran through quite a number of them in a previous post, all in addition to the room. And I agree with them all.

On the whole, the sound from these demos is not near as good as a proper setup in a home with TIME and attention to these details, one of which is the room, of course. I also have found that a newly setup system does take time to settle in, this in the years of messing with this hobby, something also appropriately mentioned by Mike above. I have heard the same thing from manufactureres or dealers - many times, the last day is the best day for sound (in addition to the extra time to dial it in).

On the other hand, as stated, sometimes it really is just a sorry system with one or more components bringing the whole chain down. I think Ron makes a good product with good parts as well. I dont always love the guy but he does have some nice stuff. It appears as if that show was a bust in either setup or room interaction. All those products in that room on their own have recieved high praise. I wasnt there. Who knows the culprit.

I used to set peoples systems up for a side job (2 channel). I would pick and purchase the gear and attempt to get it sounding its best in their home. This can be one hell of a frustrating expereience, even with the best of components. A learned a long time ago, there are MANY MANY variables at play. The equipment choice to get the best symmetry is the building block and an important starting point that can make or break the whole affair. Most of the time, you are given a room with the "make this work here" plea. If you are lucky, you have a good base from which to start. Most of the time, you groan at the sight...

kh

[Erik Mandaville]

Sounds like a great new amp, Mike -- Congrats on that!

Just a couple-a-cents-worth here, too: There is absolute truth in KH's observation regarding the DRD amps and the parts quality/quantity/circuit design relationship. Only speaking for myself, I really firmly believe that the 'less is more' addage (lets say, 'less CAN sometimes be more')can apply strongly to audio engineering. In the case of the Eliano DRD amps, one of the most important elements at play has to do with its simplicity. One look at the schematic will reveal that characteristic. The same can be said, I think, for George Wright's designs.

Although I have not always seen eye-to-eye or agreed with certain aspects of Welborne Labs, I will again agree with KH concerning the build qaulity and parts selection in Welborne's inventory. In my opinion, he uses the best of what is available. Given the quality of the power and output transformers, as well as for the other active and passive parts, the figure on the price tag for EITHER the kit or a factory-built product is uncommonly low. Moreoever, the aesthetic aspect of Welborne Labs's components is not only classic in its simple elegance (just my opinion, mind you), it is also rugged and very sturdy -- almost Parthenon-like in that respect (pardon me, Jeff, if I refer to a different ancient building!) Just make sure the epoxy used to hold the terminal boards in place is fresh and properly mixed!

I had planned to include a quote from Jack Eliano's original VTV article on this amp (this was long before Welborne decided to adopt the design), but I can't find the darn thing! This had to do with the SS rectification issue. However, to roughly paraphrase, he indicates that SS diodes (and a very well-designed circuit, too!)work well, given the fact that there is some isolation between audio and the PSU (ala Ultrapath, WE connection, whatever-you-want-to-call the thing!). I think it may boil down to being a matter of personal taste, interest, etc. I think Ron W's making tube rectification an option is a good marketing strategy, as well.

Anyway! very nice looking amplifier, Mike. The illustration provided is also a really good example of Ron Welborne's outstanding craftsmanship. An amplifier stuffed to the brim with parts is not something that should necessarily impress. The AE-1 looks far more congested inside, and the person who first built mine had pushed a couple of the smaller filter caps in place with such force (so that the bottom plate could be installed?!)that they were badly crushed-in on the underside. And why I'm bringing this up I have no idea!

You all have a good long weekend!

Erik

[NOSValves]

At least some one got my point !! This was all I was saying !

A system may not be able to "overcome" a bad room, but if the system is relatively neutral, the speakers are under decent control, and most importantly, are being pushed by an amp that's not tracking the impedance curve of the speaker -- will definitely sound better in a hellish room than a system with underdamped bass, and a treble being pushed hither and yon because of an overly-reactive amplifer. It's also more than possible that a given room might further exasperate the problems of the latter system. Extremely sensitive systems are...well...more sensitive.

[Erik Mandaville]

And Mike also discussed the importance of fewer, high quality parts -- meant to mention that in my last reply, Mike.

The Horus is actually not overly unlike the DRD in that respect. It is a simple, very well thought-out design.

[sunnysal]

congrats mike on your new amp. I look forward to hearing your opinions on its sound after a few hundred hours of break-in. It looks like something that even I could build (unlike JFL's amp! lol) I wonder how the preamp form the same series sounds? anyone heard anything? regards, tony

BTW the forum has officially notified me that I have "no life"...geez and I thought I did!

[IndyKlipschFan]

Actually Craig... As we went through the rooms one by one.. I did, indeed, agree with you. Not so much as a rubber stamp because to me it was a learning process. To understand what to look at, what to look out/ hear for, and funny as it was... we both had the same feelings for the most part on the day about what we both liked.

One thing I appraciated what you did say was, "Really after it is all said and done Roger, it is what you like too." The Chicago horn club room, proved this out pretty well. They were great guys, they were nice to welcome us as strangers to be friends. Maybe because they were "horn guys" and some already had or appreciated Klipsch too. I Just wish we had a group like them in Indy!

People spend LOTS of money chasing "audio nirvana"... Some create separate rooms to listen all alone, by themselves in one space... designed for themselves only in their house for musical enjoyment. Even altering that one spot...even 6 inches or so to either side, would destroy it too..

While I admire some that go to such a length, music to me was always about something to SHARE with people. Not that I do not want share the best seat in the house too!!

I just got back from a high end "Audiophile Store." (name ommitted and gear hidden, to allow me to be anonomous for this chat) They carry very, very, high end stuff. The guys who own the store, as well as they guys as customers in the store, while very knowlegeable about "all kinds of things audio" and all seemed highly educated. Truthfully to me they were almost too "intellectually constipated". LOL

They have, what might be seen from an outsider like me, an obsession like alcoholism. That next amp, that next set of speakers, that next set of tubes, heck I even saw little metal audio defraction thingy's you put on top of a speaker... This alone, I am sure, have to make better sounding speakers... or whatever they really "claimed" to do. The point is whatever they have they are not happy with EVER....and are thus chasing the next best thing...LOL.

So, I admit it outloud too. Some of these products people had to show off at the Midwest Audio Fest show sucked.. Sorry, it is the truth. Rather than be cruel to them in person, yes, we used the code word phrase, "Well, it must be the room." But hey, maybe we are also used to a great Klipsch sound that represents (good or bad) what goes in, comes out either good or bad, just like Paul Klipsch designed.

On a audio bulliten board we tread a fine line sometimes yes... because we share our opinions based on our likes and dislikes.. But do you, or anyone else on here, want us to sugar coat everything we see and hear as to it is ALL good?

Just like in the movie when Jack Nicholson sais "You can't handle the truth!" Some people don't like hearing it. I prefer to hear the truth. BUT that said... Wheather I agree with it or not, as "Your Truth," as an adult, is up to me.

I say to the nay sayers and the overly critical guys on the Klipsch board to get over it..

So, to use Craigs advice.

"In the end, it is really what YOU like." A LOT of people count on your good advice on the Scott amps, I say yes, like you said, your tack record is pretty good!!

My 2 cents