Update on 12yr. old Girl and RIAA

[kenratboy]

All I know is I buy WAY WAY WAY more CD's than the average American (jeez, probably 50 this last year!), so if I want to DL from Kazaa, I have $$$ earned $$$ it...

[chinoloco]

I guess the flip side to this arguement is the RIAA being guilty of unfair business practices and collusion.

I have my own business. If I overprice my products.. I am out of business. The RIAA however, did condone and participate in unfair business practices which didn't allow fair competition and price fixing which is illegal. If they allowed competition for CD sales to happen, prices would have dropped long ago. DVDs prices dropped, VHS prices dropped. Audio CD prices did not as a direct result of price fixing.

My analogy for this whole thing is robbing a bank and then complaining when someone else robbed you.

[m00n]

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On 9/11/2003 7:38:37 PM kenratboy wrote:

All I know is I buy WAY WAY WAY more CD's than the average American (jeez, probably 50 this last year!), so if I want to DL from Kazaa, I have $$$ earned $$$ it...

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While you may or may not be joking, too many people have this very exact same train of though, which is blatently wrong.

[cluless]

OK.

261 Lawsuits..

How many ACTUAL offenders...Millions

Include a poor 12 year old and it becomes a totally different debate...It becomes sociological, ethical, and emotional instead of FINANCIAL AND LEGAL

Anybody remember Punch & Judy?

The phrases that come readily to mind...Pointless flogging..Sensationalism... Media Spin Doctoring...

[WMcD]

I'll assume an injunction will be entered by a judge prohibiting the young woman from violating copyright laws. Perhaps some money damages will be sought. Probably, she is judgment proof.

Is this application of the law to a minor "fair". I think so.

Consider: she, and all of us, live in the protection of the law and have to toe the line to make sure we are not in violation. In the context of her living situation, for example, she is enjoying the benefits of public housing, we read. She also gets access to the educational system. Yes, these can be pretty maginal, but it just shows she IS in the system and can be expected to live with the responsibility.

Let's look at it from the other side. There are plenty of minors making money off the integrity of the copyright system. An early example is the Little Raskels (sp? and these folk came from a poor background) or Shirley Temple; a later one is Michael Jackson and any other very young stars. Also any infant in a diaper commercial.

There is an argument that the flow through or trickle down is small. Still, minors benefit from the system. Without uniform enforcement, infants may be robbing infants in some circumstances.

Lawyer's and judges are sarcastic about the law. An early brimide is: "The Law, in its Magisty, prohibits both the rich and the poor from sleeping under bridges." Ayn Rand commented: "The rich don't need morality and the poor can't afford it." (Close as I recall.) We can be cynical too.

None the less, I think it is fair to go after the little girl to get in line with the principles which are applied to adults.

Gil

[ZAKO]

GILL....Did you think of copyright when you xeroxed that page out of THAT book or magazine? Did you know what copyright ment when you were 12yrs old? I bet you didnt care. I also bet your parents didnt explain it to you. MOON ...Do you think that 12yr old child,s mother new anything about copyright? How many times have you seen a child copy a MICKEY MOUSE cartoon? You would,nt see EISNER (Disney CEO) slap down a child for that. I guess you two never were 12 yrs old. I have alot of my own works copyrighted BUT if An orginazation like the RIAA would go after a child, I would turn around & go after them for tramatizeing a child. SHAME ON THEM!!!!

[TheEAR]

Maron H.,

Well said and I fully agree with you on this one.

Why the slimes from the RiAa dont sue and go after those who host "illagal" MP3's on sites,and after kids who dont know the law!? WHat a bunch of brain farts,all those who support this case and the RiAa are no better.

Next time to make an even smarter move why dont they sue a 9 year old kid for having a few MP3's.That would be even better to showcase their lack of any common sense.

Sheriff MoOn,

Dear minister of the new world order,the girl who has these MP3's should be punished to the full extent of the law and jailed,her parents fined the maximum amount,if they fail to pay on time,they should jailed too.

Please sheriff mOoN apply the law now!

Apply a flawed law,yes please do.

This way justice wioll be serves(who's justice)

[WMcD]

I don't see it in quite so dramatic terms. It does bring up the value of injunctions, restition and, criminal penalties.

Suppose a 12 year old hacked your bank account and took out $1000. These sort of things happen.

The first reaction would be to have them sent to reform school, or worse. That would be mine. But it is not going to happen.

And we know you're a cool guy.

You'd say (being a cool guy): Hey, tell mom to tell the young lass to not do this and I want both of them are to be hauled into court to have a judge to put some teeth into the prohibition. It is fair that mom is told that her computer is being used in an illegal enterprize, if only by some misleaded youth.

Damages are going to be tough to prove in the file shareing situation. However, in the example, if the young lass still has control of the $1000 will you ask for it back? I'd think so. That is restitiution. It is a lawyer's set up. For all one can say for the lass's situation, are you willing to say that the loss out of your pocket should be suffered by you alone, because she is poor.

I bring up the subjects above because you seem too quick to villify the rich plaintiff and too quick to excuse the poor defendant.

Gil

[m00n]

Maron, Ear... You guys don't have to take it so personally.

[ZAKO]

Gill.... Did it ever accur to you your AVator may come under copyright restrictions? Well it does. even if you modify it 10% 50% 99% You may have infringed on some one els,s art work. You could be sued & fine.d $10,000 Did you know this? Of course you did,nt. But the owner of that copyright being a deasent person would notify you of your infringment. ( Befor slapping you down) The RIAA could have approached this child diffrently. SHAME ON THEM.

[m00n]

Maron Horonzak

What do you propose they do? Do you really think that she is just some innocent victom? Lets say she is, then I can see your point. BUT, what if she knew very well that she was breaking the law and did it anyway? then what?

Kids are not as ignorant as you are making this girl out to sound... not today. Maybe 20 years ago, but not today... If she was smart enough to know how to use Kazza or what ever other apps needed, then I am very well willing to be she knew better. Kazza is not some slam dunk application to use. I tried to install it and use it once, it was not just install it and go kind of thing as I recall. There were lots of hoops you had to go through to get hooked up to a server in order to get files... I never used it since I tried to install it.

I know my view seems very harsh and unpopular, but.... Well... I just have my view I guess.

[ZAKO]

I do not condone copyright infringement but I believe the RIAA picked the wrong turf on this one. Lets now move to our turf. JUSTIN..TX..16 The use of the cartoon robot IS a copyright infringement. He should know better. Maybe more so than the 12yr. Or now lets go to some one a bit older HOMELESS he uses a PICASSO painting. That paintings owner would probably object. Lets go back 20yrs. I dont know if your familiar with a book called JANES FIGHTING SHIPS. MCDONNELL DOUGLAS CORP. Used a small line drawing from that book It was a line drawing of a RUSSIAN fighter plane to compare to the F-15 fighter. That was a copyright infringment. It cost MCDONNELL DOUGLASS $6000. JUSTIN,s line drawing is used in a television series today. I hope he got permission. He,s a very bright & intelligent young man. BUT should his future be marred by some TV corp. who wants to make an example of him? NO and not a 12yr child not in this DRACONIAN way. Well at least they didnt hang her.

[ZAKO]

Gill.... About you analogy. If a 12 yr child was able to get into my bank account. she would have a good laugh & would probably donate her piggybank. The bank would be embarrest tha a 12yr old broke into the account & would want to keep it quiet as not to scare off the rest of its customers. F.D.I.C would probably cover the cost. But pull the insurence on the bank for letting it happen. I would transfer my Gold back to FORT KNOX.

[m00n]

Maron,

With all due resepect, I think you're stretching it a bit far on your copywright infringement examples... Just a tad.

[DrWho]

just curious, as i have written many term papers on this...what exactly is the law that prohibits the actions you are talking about?

P2P networks and similar programs are 100% legal. Shouldn't I, an innocent user, expect that every file I seach for is also legal? To be realistic, both you and I know that there are many already copyrighted files. However, it does not conflict with the current copyright laws for two reasons: First, there is no profit being made and therefor there is no damages against the artist (ya, you might be able to argue this one, but the artists themselves agree with it. It's the record companies that make issues). Second, copyright laws are not international. The Internet is international. It is perfectly legal in many countries to copy and even RESELL. So who is America to claim a file is illegal to download when in fact it was legally put on the network to be shared? (assuming someone in another country is sharing the file). If there are to be claims about copyright issues, then it must be done on an International level.

Is it moral? That's a matter of perspective.

A few more facts and I'll be done...

CD sales relative to the slump in the economy have increased significantly. Researches claim that part of this reason is the free advertising P2P networks provide. Anyone telling you CD sales are going down are full of crap and bending the stats.

Artist talent has gone down the drain. There are much fewer good artists, but the tools provided by digital recording help cover this up.

And lastly, I myself plan to become my own record label in the very near future. I've already been mixing for 11 years, and finally converting from analog production (tapes) to a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) this very week (yay for CDs).

"Illegal" P2P networking is an International issue and therefore will never be solved until we get an international government (oh man, endtimes). Therefore, I'm totally behind it and trying to bash something that's already become culturally accepted won't accomplish anything. Instead, record labels can provide their own alternatives, that if better than P2P, would do wonders for the industry. For example, would you not pay a monthly fee for the ability to download files from a server the record company set up? You could get higher quality files, faster downloads, and not have to worry about the other crap from Kazaa and LimeWire. I thought this was my own idea, but I have read numerous articles of other smaller record companies that have done the same thing and nearly doubled their profit margin. Internet servers are relatively cheap to maintain (after they're installed), and the entire world can tap into it.

Anyways, that's a crap load all at once and I hope y'all didn't just skip over every detail. Again, I would like to ask: What law prohibits downloading files (not uploading) from P2P networks?

[MrMcGoo]

In a better world, we would all agree that we should teach children never to steal the property of others, even if the property is over priced software.

Bill

[m00n]

Heh.. I was tought that as far back as I can remember.

[Tom Adams]

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On 9/12/2003 10:32:50 AM m00n wrote:

Maron,

With all due resepect, I think you're stretching it a bit far on your copywright infringement examples... Just a tad.

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Uhhhh...no he isn't. I was part of a project my corporation had going called IRM. As a minor gesture the project team gave everyone a candy jar that had an image of Yosemite Sam on it with the words "IRM'd and dangerous". We got slammed for the image 'cause it was copyrighted.

Chevrolet, even though they quit making decals and such for early model cars (and had no intention to ever make them), sued and shut down a bunch of folks that were making reproduction decals. Now, I'm not talking about Chevy bow-tie emblems, I'm talking about decals that said "396 Cubic Inches".

I think Maron's point is that at some point in time in all of our lives as kids, we do things that we may/may not know is wrong. But does that give entitites the "right" to make an example of us? Hell, at 14 I was on my dirt bike and had a cop follow me over 100 yards before I realized he was there. After he pulled me over he asked if there was something wrong with my front tire since the whole time he was following me I was on the back tire (was doing a wheelie if you haven't figured it out. Yes - I was pretty good at them). Did he throw me in jail? No. Did I know what I was doing was wrong? Yes. Did he take me home. Yes. Did I get an *** whooping? Yes. My point is that what I did broke several laws, yet someone decided to use their common sense and correct the behavior without resorting to applying the law to it's fullest extent.

BTW, I personally think that after reading through all these posts, DrWho makes the most sense. And I'll finish up my late afternoon ramble by saying this:

"People in glass houses should not throw stones".

Tom

[m00n]

Sure, if you are going to use someones logo in an advertisment, something related to money, then I can see the copyright laws going to affect.

BUT, what I was referring to was at some point he mentioned someone useing their avitar here on the board. That is what I was referring to when I said he was going a bit far.

[dbflash]

I have mixed feelings about this issue. I bought 15 Cds Saturday and ordered 5 more. I read about the 12 year old Monday morning. I called my Record Store Monday and cancelled the order. I'm tired of the RIAA.

I have never down loaded. I use to buy albums and copy the one or two good songs off the album unto a cassette. Now I am going to get sued for admitting this on a public forum.

I have a question about this copy right issue. They are two other topics in this forum: Rolling Stones and Guitar Mag top 100. These list's are both copyright protected. Did the poster get permission to post them?

Danny