Deang Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 So then, absolutely no advantage to solid state rectification except less cost. I love this hobby -- an industry filled with compulsive liars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 So then, absolutely no advantage to tube rectification except more cost. I love this hobby -- an industry filled with compulsive liars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Is this a reply or a quote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 sheesh, what did I miss, except Mark and I seem to have said the same thing (Mark's last point), probably writing at the same time. I know the remark wasn't intended for us anyway, but also don't know about the liar part in general. There's plenty of room for confusion and mis-communication in audio electronics. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Does it matter? I think the compulsive liars thing a bit much but the endless debate one which is better, solid state or tube rectification, is a lot of opinion in my view. Some are more sensitive to this than others and some circuits are done better with EITHER topology than others. One thing I really agree on, the stock way 98% of tube amps do their solid state rectification is subpar and sounds inferior to the point that it actually bothers me. Most of the Chinese and low cost tube amps employ these simple little diodes. I'm senstive to it. To me, it lends some of the quality I dont like about solid state to the presentation. Others could care less. IF GOING SS rectification, it's generally agreed by most that fast recovery HEXFRED devices with a snubber network takes a lot of the negatives from SS rectification. Still, I am going tube as I just found it simply sounds better. No lies. No twisting of arm. To me, the difference is audible, notable, and important enough to deal with another rectification tube. IF anyone here does have a SS rectified tube amp (and there are SURELY many of these from China floating about), this relatively cheap mod to fast switching Hexfreds/snubber might give you some better results from your PS. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I would love to take you up on this test as I think I could tell them apart. I am talking push pull here. The last time I did a huge listening session with a large number of tube rectified and SS rectified amps was when I was living in the PA mountains and for kicks, used to drive to Philly to sample something akin to CITY life; I would invariably end up at Stereo Exchange to visit Mike the Loon who had more used tube amps than sense. I kid you not, he would start hooking up various amp/preamp combinations on his main rack (not an audio rack but a long six tier shelf filled with gear to sell). I could identifiy tube vs solid state rectification almost 100% of the time, believe it or not. Want more tooting of horn? heh... I could identify the amp manufacturer about 70% of the time, this between the big names. IE, I could always tell when he hooked up one of his many Conrad Johnson amps. Ditto with the Audio Research. Ditto #3 with Quicksilver. I found the EL-34 Carys to have a certain sound as well (we are talking their orginal EL-34 amp, the SLA-70 and its derivatives). I know this sounds berserk, but it's true sadly enough. Audrey would even get into the mix, if only to get us out of there in under 4 hours! heh... Yeah, it's a bit pathetic. I would love to have the EXACT same amp with SS vs tubes though. The only current sample of this I know of right now is the Welborne LAbs DRD SET amps. Otherwise, you would be hard pressed to find a company putting out both versions. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Actually a AB comparision can be easily done by anyone with Tube rectified Mono black with little use of a soldering iron including your Moon dogs. They make tube rectifier replacement that plug right into most popular rectifier sockets all that is left is to insure the B+ is equal in both amps ! I think I may just have to try this out myself . Of coarse I'm sure Kelly will never except the results. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 "Liars" -- Of course, the comment had nothing to do with anyone on this forum. Let's pretend (this may take a stretch). I'm a designer of tube amps. I started goofing around with this stuff in my teens. I used to sleep with the Radiotronics book under my pillow. I took all the electronics courses in Jr. High School all the way through 12th grade. I went to tech school, and then did the EE thing in College. I used to hang with all the heavies in the audio industry, and I've pretty much seen it all. Now I build and sell amps...and also say things that I know aren't true -- just to make a buck. How about something almost as bad? Knowing that I do not know for sure -- but don't even bother to find out. This activity from supposedly "competent" people. Then of course you have wanna be guys, and we don't even want to get into the stupid crap they do. It's just aggravating. Before my wife went in for surgery a few years ago we had to meet at the Doctor's office for the consulation. Toward's the end of the meeting I shook hands with him and said, "Straight A's in Med School right?" I was kidding, but he thought I was serious -- as he got this goofy look on his face and was clearly "grasping" for the correct response. I told him, "Hey, I was only kidding, but now I'd like to see your transcripts (I was still kidding). He finally blurted, "I did good where it counted". Guess what? We didn't use that surgeon -- not because I was worried he didn't get straight A's, but because for a split second I sensed he was going to BS me. He just took too damn long to answer. Even still, in the back of my mind I wondered what he really thought about his skills. The comments I quoted were by Ron Welborne. Of course, I have no idea what is background or education is. Just seems to me someone in his line of business should be more accurate and detail oriented with the information they put out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I very much side with Mark on this and think things arent so simple here. Many times there ARE NO simple anwers OR one answer. I dont know why people have such a hard time with this,...perhaps this explains why God is so popular. Or McDonalds. People LIKE one answer where they can package it up and stop thinking about it. The more you get into anything, the MORE YOU UNCOVER the gray areas.... You understand more clearly in some ways yet in others, you start to reveal more nuance and subtle shadings. Trying to stick everthing in black or white categories rarely gets to the truth. kh ps- Man, I think there have been A LOT of irresponsible posts here lately. I dont always agree with Ron Welborne and we have had run ins but I sure wouldnt have posted something like that. What's up, Dean? Hell, you know as well as anything this hobby is MANY areas of Gray..and takes and interpretations are NUMEROUS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Actually I think many of the audio retailers and designers pray on the weakness on the audiophile searching for "magic" and truly think in some ways they are blatant liars or at the very least blatant misleaders ! I myself have attained numerous misconceptions over the last 2 years and then ended up doing a complete 180 and 90% of the misconception stem from things I heard right here on the forum that most likely there origins came from well known audio designers. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Oh the same can be said for just about any product widely available from various suppliers no denying that for sure ! The audio industry is not alone in misleading the consumer that is for sure. Heck you ought check into high performance auto race parts !! Talk about tall tales ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 ---------------- On 10/16/2003 6:00:12 PM NOSValves wrote: Actually I think many of the audio retailers and designers pray on the weakness on the audiophile searching for "magic" and truly think in some ways they are blatant liars or at the very least blatant misleaders ! I myself have attained numerous misconceptions over the last 2 years and then ended up doing a complete 180 and 90% of the misconception stem from things I heard right here on the forum that most likely there origins came from well known audio designers. Craig ---------------- 90% of your dead ends are from this forum... Wow!!! Time to look elsewhere and diversify your sources for informations! Did you read the old Sound Practices, Glass Audio, the Morgan Jones book, the "White Book" fom Atarashi, The Mullard book, even something as classic as the Williamson book? All of these classics have their take on what a tube amp should be. Is one better than another? Well, to me they are different! Do I prefer one? Hell, No! They all have their strength and flaws. If one wants to find the absolute truth, he should look elsewhere than audio. It may be my limited english skills but your deception from "misleaders" seems to imply you seek for a leader with the truth. Let me know when you find one! If I can give you an advice, seek for a mentor, not for a leader. BTW, I hope you are not defining "a complete 180" as going from a Eico HF-81 to a Scott 299 or a Dyna MK III!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Jeff, Thanks I have a mentor !! He posted above and usually steers me in the right direction if I shut up and listen. He doesn't do this with opinion strictly cold hard facts ! This same person should get most of the credit for what I have accomplished in such a short time frame ! I have never had such a patient teacher in my life ! I am not a easy student that is for sure ! My 180's have nothing to do with my own gear ! I'm talking about basic design opinions. I have stacks of books on tube audio design and find most of them only scratch the surface many those were recommended by you ! I think the biggest learning in this thing is by doing ! It also happens to be the most enjoyable part of the hobby/business at least to me well maybe a tie to the great responses I get from my customers ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 Good post Mark, and I hadn't really thought of those things before, but it's not was I was really talking about. Let's back up and look at what I was originally addressing, which really didn't have anything to do with "which is better" sonically. I posted statements claiming the benefits of SS rectification over tube rectification. It is an issue involving a concept of design. To me, it is more like math. This and this does that. That and that does this. I wasn't asking about the sound, or which was superior. All I wanted to know was whether the statements were true or false, or if one did in fact have any inherent advantages electrically over the other. If one knows 2 and 2 make 4, and say it is 3 -- than what do you call it? A misunderstanding? "Many times there ARE NO simple anwers OR one answer..." To the engineer who understands circuits and electricity -- it IS a simple answer. What does rectification do? How do you implement it? Does doing it this way bring advantages electrically speaking that the other one doesn't? Does one or the other introduce distortion artifacts to the signal? Advantages, disadvantages? Now, if they do in fact "sound" different in the end -- that is a different issue. I only wanted to know if the statements were true or false. "...perhaps this explains why God is so popular. Or McDonalds. People LIKE one answer where they can package it up and stop thinking about it." I like that. People believe in God because it's sooo simple, and they always eat at McDonalds because it's sooo convenient. And of course, no one is ever thinking about any of this while they are doing it. Did you know I can tell what kind of Bible someone is using by the sound of the pages flipping? 70% of time, I can tell what part of the Bible they are reading by the type of groans they are emitting as they attempt to decipher the simplicity of the text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Did you know I can tell what kind of Bible someone is using by the sound of the pages flipping? 70% of time, I can tell what part of the Bible they are reading by the type of groans they are emitting as they attempt to decipher the simplicity of the text. To funny !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 "I have stacks of books on tube audio design and find most of them only scratch the surface many those were recommended by you!" Craig, it's always such a pleasure to take the time to help you... Well I hope you did not expect a deep coverage from Rozenblit's book Beginner's Guide to Tube Audio If the superficial books I recommended you are now digested maybe it's time for you to have fun with TubeCad (www.tubecad.com). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 Craig's been done with that one for some time. It's over here now collecting dust. It was too hard on my eyes. Craig used freaking highlighter on every page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I take it there is no freeware for TubeCad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 This goes a little bit deeper Craig. The eternal question This will raise some eyebrows In italian but maths are universal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 Excellent stuff Jeff -- Thanks. I'm sure Craig will enjoy it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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