marksdad Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 ok, i am not the best at putting my thoughts down on the screen, but here goes.... recently i went exploring the wonderfull world of analog, i will admit at first i was extremly sceptical. what analog better than digital? what vinyl better than sacd? dvd-a?, i began with the thorens td 145 mk11 (now for sale) i loved it, it was so 3 dimensional, so relaxed as if you were there, not in a forced way, very relaxed. well about 4-5 months ago, after i went to sacd and dvd-a i promissed i would never do another cd, and i took and sold almost every cd i owned, except for a few i used as reference cds in audio comparisons, i picked up a few more of the same discs to reference my reference discs, and yes the newer formats were more refined. i love the sound, the presentation, but something still lacked, way off in the far corner of my mind, i knew there was a missing element, and the missing element i can now say was the soul, the spirit of the recording....... i began doing head to heads on the 3-4 formats i was currently using, i did buy a few lp's to match my reference discs, and 1 by one i saw the difference, the analog recordings had the missing element, the heart of the performance. so i began reading on the different characteristics of the formats, after that i began researching differences i turntables, my thorens is a workhorse, will probably never die, but i wanted a slightly different ambience, an ambience that represented the way the analog represented itself, tramsparent, clean and, dynamic, so i decided on the sumiko, since i am new to tt's i decided to assemble my machine myself, to learn how it works in more detail, it would probably have taken some of you 20 minutes, but it took me 5 hours, i just wanted to do everything right, after i set it up, and placed it in its new home, i carefully leveled it, and took a minute to admire its clean lines, wow it looks like a piece of art, anyway i placed my first old timing disc on the platter, carefully cleaned it and away we went, the disc was montrose's paper money, ( this was the lp we used to play as gi's discharged fron the army during the 70's, because of the song "were going home") as i sat and listened, i was litterally breathing harder, gasping, carried away. i was taken back 30 years, the clarity, and liquidity of the presentation was so realistic i could see my army buddies leaving germany "going home", it brought a few nostalgic tears to my eyes, a few seconds later i remembered i was auditioning a new tt, at this point i have only 10-15 lp's, but all oldies, and well known to me, piece after piece was so new, new passages, extended voices, extra echo, lower bass (not fabricated), real human tones, weaknesses in voice, and mis cues on instruments, it was so gentle and forcefull all at the same time. i wont site specs or use audiophile terminology, i will say however..... digital cant touch analog for its faithfullness to nature, as soon as i can figure out my camera i will post piks, thanks guys, all of you tters who helped me in my quest, it does get better and better, just wished it did not cost so much, have a happy thanksgiving, from my family to yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 Is the controversy going to be about whether-or-not to divide a long post into paragraphs for easier reading? I'll bet I can walk you through your camera problems. What's up? What camera do you have? Happy Thanksgiving! fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 I don't see any controversy from here. Digital formats offer streams of musical information in very small bits and the better the technology, the less distinction between the bits. Analogue is a continuous flow of information, without any separation at all. Aside from the inherent drawbacks of vinyl playback - pops, surface noise, warps and speed variation, I can't imagine how anyone could suggest that digital offers a more realistic presentation of the music. The only controversy I read here concerns your statement about the cost. You can buy plenty of newly-pressed LPs for $10 or so. Used LPs can be had for much less depending on the store - record shops sell non-collectible LPs in mint condition for $3 - 5 or you can hit the thrift shops and with a good eye, pick up records in fine condition for $1 or less (there's a few stores around Baltimore that occasionally put records on sale (5 or 7 for $1). I have yet to find CDs for that price much less SACDs. Have fun -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted November 23, 2003 Author Share Posted November 23, 2003 you totally missed it, the cost is discovering new avenues of audio, for example, i just spent 1700 to go analog, and sold 170 cd's, since i have been dabbling in audio it seems that all i do is spend money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 Marksdad, Please pm me with details of your TT and asking price. I may have a buyer for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 Marksdad, Thanks for all the help with my B&K issues, and this thread on analog has me thinking alot about a past promise I made to myself. I swore I would never go back to plastic after an ex took everything I owned including my Klipsch cornwall, heresy, GAS Ampzilla, Son of Ampzilla, Dalquist dq-10 mirror imaged, B & 0 TT, and 2000 plus som odd 1st quility albums, 20 years in collecting...Sorry for the long regress. Bottom line is I need to step back to my old days and re-try the analog highway....and your writing has inspired me Thank you thank you thank you How much do you want for your thorens TT, I would like to buy it if you want to sell it!! Email me at Bichonf@aol.com No matter what: Please have a happy and healthy Thanksgiving with your family.. Steve Smilin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted November 24, 2003 Author Share Posted November 24, 2003 hey guys, you have messages..... yup i went disc shopping yesterday, picked up on some good vintage lps, ranging in price from 1.99-17.00 i would say the median range is about 4.00 for a well preserved lp, i have not purchased alot of the oldies before because of the poor quality on the cd's, but now the oldies are back on the play list, even my son likes the new tunes. fini, i will get back to you about my camera in a day or two, i think my problem is more an operating system thing, bless hp! you know i see in a few sig's "lights on tubes glowing" this is exactly how i feel about my tt rig, i do not mind the exttra care and time it takes to enjoy the lp's, plus the nostalgia really seems to give an added layer of warmth to the presentation, discovering the old new is alot of fun, thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Well MD - welcome to the disease.... You are about 2 years behind me in getting back into vinyl. I am now up(?) 800 albums and it is still growing. My wife has finally cottoned on to the truth - vinyl is cheaper in terms of a disk to disk price comparison but actually much more expensive in that you just keep buying the things. (compare 450 CDs bought over 14 years with 800 disks bought in 2!) Further - storage starts to become a problem real quick. This is doubly problematic as it gets harder and harder to hide purchases. Within a half mile radius of the office I am sitting in are about 10 vinyl sellers - with masses of stock of new and old records - in all genres I care about and several I dont (but Kelly would love - indy stuff - hmmm). Anyway welcome to the fold - time to start planning some new shelving I dont doubt.... Oh God - I'm getting itchy feet to go out browsing again - must be strong!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Great post Mark. Is your the amp your using the B@K? I bet if you tried an older Scott for a few $ you might like the TT even better. Have a great Turkey Day!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Hello: In this contreversy I see digital quietly wondering. If you have a home or professional recording studio you can buy Nuemann tube microphones, units to give you recordings that tube like warmth, sound, etc. All of them usually in the thousands of dollars. That says something, Win dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted November 26, 2003 Author Share Posted November 26, 2003 thanks for the welcome max, i do love the availibility of the vinyl, cleaning gear is an issue for now, i am awaiting a delivery from needle doc, but any of the better products can only be found on line, any suggestions on bulk, either buy, or make ones self? i have purchased all of the brushes i will need, but i need good solutions for cheaper than i have been getting (4.00 for 2 oz) it is amayzing how dirty those discs get, maybe i have dirt fairies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Interesting the cleaning issue - I have to admit I dont clean my disks unless I think there is a lot of background hiss - in which case I try it. Having tried various homebrew solutions I have now hit on the perfect solution (no pun intended) for me. Around the corner from my office is a guy who sells a record cleaning machine (for $1300). I'm not prepared to spring that kind of Cash for the job (and have nowhere to put it). Chatting to him he agreed to offer the service to me for 70 cents a disk. Actually he now offers the service generically. The problem is that he also sells vinyl - lots of it - and all great stuff. Every time I go to get some records cleaned I walk out at least $100 lighter... Maybe it is not such a perfect solution after all. PS. I would love to post a pic of this machine - it is seriously impressive - but I think it is locally made and cant find it on the net. When I get the chance I will dig out his brochure - scan it and put it up on here. Just for reference it does 2 disks at a time. Each are held on a spindle - squirt with liquid - brushed - and then high power vacuumed. It is quite scarey the first time you see it in action as I was sure it would be detroying the vinyl (it is a very strong vacuum) but to date it doesnt seem to do any harm whatsoever. According to the distributor it is the fastest cleaner on the market - at least twice as fast as the clearaudio cleaner and costs half as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Interesting the cleaning issue - I have to admit I dont clean my disks unless I think there is a lot of background hiss - in which case I try it. Having tried various homebrew solutions I have now hit on the perfect solution (no pun intended) for me. Around the corner from my office is a guy who sells a record cleaning machine (for $1300). I'm not prepared to spring that kind of Cash for the job (and have nowhere to put it). Chatting to him he agreed to offer the service to me for 70 cents a disk. Actually he now offers the service generically. The problem is that he also sells vinyl - lots of it - and all great stuff. Every time I go to get some records cleaned I walk out at least $100 lighter... Maybe it is not such a perfect solution after all. PS. I would love to post a pic of this machine - it is seriously impressive - but I think it is locally made and cant find it on the net. When I get the chance I will dig out his brochure - scan it and put it up on here. Just for reference it does 2 disks at a time. Each are held on a spindle - squirt with liquid - brushed - and then high power vacuumed. It is quite scarey the first time you see it in action as I was sure it would be detroying the vinyl (it is a very strong vacuum) but to date it doesnt seem to do any harm whatsoever. According to the distributor it is the fastest cleaner on the market - at least twice as fast as the clearaudio cleaner and costs half as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Nice tests and results. Thanks for posting that! I've been dabbling with LPs for a few years but I really hate them. You have to clean or at least dust every one every single time you play it. Thats a hassle. Then you have to flip the LP over and clean the other side and continue hearing the music. That's a hassle too. How do you store 500+ LPs so you can easily access and identify them? Pile them up and then flip through them? That's a hassle. Cd's are much easier to store and identify once stored. They're also much lighter and easier to handle. Sliding an LP gingerly in and out of a jacket is a hassle. Sure, LPs will take you back to days of old but that to me, doesn't make them better. It just makes them nostalgic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 The things I do for this forum. Just went to the shop that sells the cleaner I mentioned to pick up another copy of the brochure to scan. They were having a sale on classical records @ 2 Euros (about $2.25) each to make space for 800 new ones arriving at the end of the week. So I bought 50 odd... 1. Beethoven - the Fine Arts Quartet - Concert Disks 2. Beethoven Overtures - W.D.&H.O.Wills Master Series 3. Beethoven Piano concerto 2 & Choral Fantasia - Brendel - Turnabout 4. Beethoven Symphony 2 - Concert Hall Record Club 5. Beethoven Fur Elise - Deutche Grammaphon 6. Beethoven Fidelio Highlights - EMI 7. Beethoven Piano Sonatas - EMI 8. Beethoven Quartet N16 / Grosse Fuge - Vanguard Cardinal Series 9. Berlioz Te Deum - Columbia Masterworks 10.Berlioz Romeo & Juliette - Philips 11.Berlioz Requiem - Box Set - Philips (may be playing for me tonight!!) 12.Bizet Symphony in C and Dukas Sorcerer's Apprentice Leonard Bernstein - CBS 13.Brahms Symphony 4, Halle Orchestra - EMI 14.Brahms Tragic Overture and Concerto for Voilin and Cello - Praga records (?) 15.Brahms Symphony No.1 - Cleveland Orchestra/Szell - Columbia Special series Re-issue. 16.Bruckner Symphony 4 in E flat - RCA Red Seal 17.Bruckner Symphony 7 in E Major - Turnabout 18.Frank Symphony in D minor - RCA Gold Seal 19.Liszt Rubenstein plays - RCA Victor Red Seal 20.Gregorian Chant - Decca Serenata 21.16 Celebri Marce - RCA 22.Don Quichotte - Jules Massenet - Cetra Everest Opera Series 23.JS Bach - The Great Cantatas - Musical Heritage Society 24.Mozart - Serenades 6 & 9 - Electrecord - Romania(!) 25.Sibelius Symphony 1 - EMI 26.Sibelius Symphony 5 - EMI 27.Verdi La Traviata (Highlights) - RCA Red Seal 28.Wagner Highlights from the Flying Dutchman - Philips 29.Ravel Bolero / La Valse / Rapsodie Espagnole - Philips 30.Ravel Bolero (oh crap - 2 of them!) - RCA Victrola 31.Make we Merry - christmas stuff - various - RCA Red Seal 32.Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2/Mendelssonn Capriccio Brillant - EMI 33.Gilbert Sullivan The Yeoman of the Guard - Fontana Special 34.Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade - EMI - probably mono - His masters voice looks original 35.Orff - Carmina Burana - RCA Red Seal 36.Grieg Piano concert in A / Liszt Piano Concert 1 - Classics Club London 37.Liszt / Dvorak / Smetana - RCA Red Seal 38.Delius Appalachia An Arabesque - Philips 39.Delius Paris / Sea Drift - Columbia Masterworks 40.Elgar Sacred Music - EMI 41.Elgar Symphony 1 - RCA Victrola 42.Prokofiev Peter and the Wolf / Britten - young persons guide to the orchestra - EMI 43.Haydn Symphony 94 and Trumpet Concert - Basic Record Library 44.Haydn Symphonies 21 / 48 / 82 - Nonsuch Records 45.Offenbach - Tales of Hoffman - Columbia Masterworks 46.J.S.Bach Mass in B Minor - Vanguard (Box set) No idea where these are going to go - we are so out of room it aint funny!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 I clean my LPs with a hand held audio-technica "record broom" and AT608 cleaner formula. Doing that is a pain ...I can't imagine having to clamp a record or two on a big space hogging machine like that boheme monstrosity each time I wanted to listen to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 BB, You dont have to clean the records every time you play them. the guys that sell them recommend - as needed - which they equate to every 50 plays or so. Otherwise you just brush with the standard vinyl brush for playing as normal. I guess at some point it becomes financially viable to do this - but the space needed is my problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Its a standing joke in the office that I am a faster typist than any of the secretaries. Last time I measured - with the old Mavis Beacon Typing tutor - it was 65 wpm - probably faster now. does that program still exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 ---------------- On 11/26/2003 9:08:40 AM BigBusa wrote: I clean my LPs with a hand held audio-technica "record broom" and AT608 cleaner formula. Doing that is a pain ...I can't imagine having to clamp a record or two on a big space hogging machine like that boheme monstrosity each time I wanted to listen to it. ---------------- On the VPI 16.5, its a 2 minute process if you clean each side twice for good measure. You only do it once, when playing the LP after that you use a good quality carbon fiber record brush. The results are excellent in terms of blacker background and a more dynamic presentation. O ya, lets not forget a much less if none clicks and pops on good condition used lp's. For the time spent its worth the results obtained. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 I'm just spolied by technology. Although, I like a little nostalgia once in a while. It makes me appreciate how far we've come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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