Good ol' NOS verses the latest Chinese and Russian valves...

[artto]

Not to diss those who enjoy tube rolling (I gave up on that long ago.....boring), but doesn't anyone hear the difference in these devices from one moment to the next? As a musician, I can tell you that as a matter of fact, I can hear the difference in my (especially new) instrument strings from minute to minute. This why many musicians in certain music genre' change their strings every performance set. Others perfer to 'wear them out', getting a more dead sound. Tubes are much the same way. Constantly changing, espescially off the beginning of their use. Then into a long slow performance decline. And sometimes they just break (just like instrument strings). Not to mention how tube types from the same manufacturer, different batches, sound and measure different. (it's this very inconsistancy that was one of the reasons for moving away from tubes in the first place)

If one cut's the hairs of resolution so thin, so narrow, the 'range of certainty' so small, how shall one even recognize one's own face, from one moment to the next?

Do I hear Dr. Bronowsky speaking?

Don't worry about it too much. Do you really want to be like kelly?

[ben.]

Just found this in my Inbox. It's long, but germaine (not really to tubes, but...). BTW, Thomson makes RCA and Scenium (division of GE).

Hopefully it's not too late.

----------------------------------------------------

U.S. Govt Imposes Antidumping Penalties

Greg Tarr

TWICE

12/1/2003 10:07:00 AM

Washington The U.S. Department of Commerce has imposed preliminary antidumping penalties on certain color television sets imported from the Peoples Republic of China (PRC).

The ruling came following a petition filed last May by Tennessee-based television manufacturer Five Rivers Electronic Innovations and two labor unions, and imposes antidumping duties of between 28-46 percent, effective December 1. The petition sought antidumping duties on

tube-based direct-view color televisions 21-inches and larger of up to 84 percent for certain Chinese manufacturers and up to 46 percent for certain Malaysian TV makers.

The Commerce Departments preliminary ruling omitted duties on imports from Malaysia, but targeted the largest Chinese manufacturers including. Sichuan Changuhong Electric Co.; TCL International Holdings and Konka Group.

In the ruling, the department said Sichuan was exporting at a dumping margin of 45.87 percent, TCL at 31.35 percent and Konka at 27.94 percent. Others included: Starlight (40.84 percent); Philips (40.84 percent); Haier (40.84 percent) and Hinenser (40.84 percent).

The news was not surprising to a number of vendors of Chinese goods contacted by TWICE.

'We have been preparing for this since June,' said Lee Schoenfeld, sales and marketing VP for Prima Technologies, which handles sales for Advent/Jensen-branded sets produced at Chinas Xoceco factory, whichwas cited with a 31.7 percent dumping margin. All of our Advent and Jensen CRT HDTV ( 27- through 34-inches) and future projection HDTV, will be produced in the USA. We have already begun the process of prototype testing in the USA factory, and will be shipping to the mass market in May or earlier, in synch with our retailers transition plans.'

A spokesman for Thomson, which recently announced a merger with TCL International Holdings to form the TCL-Thomson joint venture, said 'As a global company with operations in over 100 countries, Thomson strongly supports the development of international trade, and is opposed to any practices that would hamper this goal. We therefore do not see anything positive for Thomson from the preliminary ruling.

'The International Trade Commissions work on antidumping has been common knowledge throughout the year and so it changes nothing with regard to Thomsons strategy in China and its Chinese partners,' the Thomson spokesman added.

Thomsons agreement with TCL gives the Chinese manufacturer access to Thomsons factories in Mexico and other locations, which it could use to build TV sets for the U.S. market to skirt the dumping measures.

Jay Srivatsa, principal analyst with iSupply/Stanford Resources, said the dumping measure would likely have Chinese manufacturers scrambling to seek out partnership alliances with other CE companys, in a fashion similar the Thomson/TCL joint venture. He added, Chinese set makers would likely look for factories in Mexico and other sites that are not subject to TV tariffs to assemble sets for the U.S. market.

Through the preliminary ruling, U.S. importers of Chinese television sets will have to start depositing money in an escrow account with the U.S. government equivalent to the margins of dumping.

The Commerce Department defines dumping as the sale of products at a price below the home-market or a third-country price, or below the cost of production. The dumping margin is the price difference expressed as a percentage of the export price.

In its procedure, the Commerce Department first announces preliminary antidumping duties and then follows with final duties. The department is expected to issue a final ruling April 12, 2004. If the ruling is maintained at that time, and the U.S. International Trade Commission also finds evidence of damage to the U.S. manufacturer, the antidumping penalties will be finalized.

According to a statement from Five Rivers, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW), and the Industrial Division of the Communications Workers of America (IUE-CWA), PRC and Malaysia TV manufacturers have been unfairly dumping goods in the U.S. market, 'severely undercutting the U.S. television manufacturing industry and its workers.'

According to the petitioners statement, Commerce investigators found that 'critical circumstances' exist, making the duties retroactive 90 days. A finding of 'critical circumstances' refers to import surges that occur prior to the announcement of antidumping duties in an attempt to 'beat the clock' and avoid the duties.

'We are pleased that Commerces investigation concurred with what we have observed in our market for the last few years with respect to China,' said Five Rivers president Tom Hopson said in a formal statement. 'We expect that Commerces further investigation and final determination will result in duties on CTVs from Malaysia.'

According to Five Rivers, its unfair trade petition tracked imports between 2000 and 2002. 'The data reflect that total CTV imports from both countries between these years skyrocketed from 209,887 units to 2,656,456 units in 2002, an explosive 1,166 percent,' the companys statement said. Import penetration rose ten-fold during the same period.

The data also presents evidence of a causal link between lost U.S. market share due to the rising volume of unfairly traded imports and the domestic industrys declining revenues and profits, lost sales, and the resultant impact on the workforce. The petition notes that U.S. production lines have closed, causing layoffs and the loss of numerous jobs.

[mobile homeless]

Lord... why did I open my mouth about cars...

[NOSValves]

Kelly,

That is AMERICAN buying Public... And it points to some BIG problems when every single middle American mom, college student, and suburb gimcrack is riding around in SUVs. As I stated, it's BIGGER is better in the good ole USA.

It's one thing when you NEED a truck. But now every froot has to have a truck or SUV. You go to Europe and you realize how out of whack our society is. We are KINGS of waste. We seem like gluttons when looking back this way from overseas.

I personally think SUV's are about as appealing to drive as a schoolbus. Hell, the schoolbus is more fun cause you can do more damage!

We are living in our own dream World. The entire World is conserving fuel and downsizing but us. Once again, we are behind the curve. Driving on the Autostrada in Italy reminds you several things:

1. Our roads are some of the best

2. Our drivers some of the worst

3. And our roads are clogged with gas humping, clod driving SUVs!

kh

Tell us really I'm curious as all get out. Is there anything about the USA you do like ?? You constantly rant about every aspect of are lovely country I just do not understand why you stay here ! People drive SUV's and Trucks because they like them since when is there something wrong with buying what you like ? Is this not a free country ? Next your going to say its not being responsible to the environment but by the same token you let your old tube amps burn up the old electricity 24/7 without a thought Heh !

Also where did you exclude trucks and SUV's ?? Your statement is below and Trucks and SUV's are a good portion of there production and profit margins so yes they make them there high priority wouldn't you ???

Hell, the US automakers have put some of the worst garbage on the past 20 years with mediocre fit and finish

I really think you should move the China Kelly !

Craig

[mobile homeless]

Craig, after reading that post of yours, I thought of one more reason why I should move to Europe...

kh

[NOSValves]

Man I knew if I kept it up I could get you out of the country ! Now do me one more favor move some where they do not have and never will have internet access and save us all the drivel !

Craig

[Painful Reality]

Did I ever told you your site was nice Craig?

[NOSValves]

Yep and I paid dearly in money and headache to boot I see your up to your part time job sticking up for pour old Kelly who gets himself into trouble all the time again !

[mobile homeless]

I wish I didn't have internet access when I made your logo, name, and that site for peanuts (Christ, I had to write it all as well for obvious reasons). Your post was the most embarrassing thing in the thread, and that includes the Pontiac Monte Carlo. It was filled with hypocrisy, poor logic, lack of understanding, poor syntax, and a basic misunderstanding of what your very own country stands for.

Part of the problem comes from this mentality.

To add insult to injury, all of it whizzes by overhead like migrating fowl.

kh

ps - paid dearly? You ungrateful HACK! That cost you a whopping $650. You are the biggest A-hole I have ever met, Craig.

[NOSValves]

Yup it cost me $650 and about a year of headache and guess what it was never completed !! Keep it up Kelly and I'll just let the entire story spew out like a waste disposal. Your asking for this treatment in various posts and I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU !! I'm not the only one with complaints ! Find some about me and my service Heh !!

Craig

[NOSValves]

Kelly,

You know what you need to learn when it comes to business !

The customer is of the utmost importance !

Without your customer you are out of business !

The customer is the boss what he wants is the determaining factor in what gets done !

Treat the customer with respect before and after the sale and forever !

I have been self imployed my entire life dealing with customers and always successful ! The way I treat you or others here has nothing to do with my business. If the only reason I was here was for business do you really think I would question others opinions ! I'm here because audio is also my hobby ! I do not believe in putting up false fronts just to better my business in public. I come here for the enjoyment and information just like everyone else. You just hate that I do not agree with you on almost anything. I myself pride myself on it ! I think you are a raving loon !

Craig

[Parrot]

I have to say I side with Kelly on this one: I think he'd be happier in Europe than in China.

[trvale]

Seems like everyone is trying to make blanket statements. Making statements like all American cars are crap, or that everything made in Asia sucks, seems illogical to me. There are going to be companies that produce good quality products and companies that produce poor quality products regardless of what country they are produced in. Nobody could possibly defend a statement like "Bose are just as good as Klipsch" because they are both american companies. Now both companies have different customers in mind. Bose knows that nobody is going to hook there speakers up to a Sunfire Signature amp, and they are designed accordingly. Same thing goes for cars. I personally have had much better experience with German and Japanese cars. But that is not to say that Ford can't produce quality automobiles. A car like the Crown Vic was designed to be used in fleets, as in police cars and taxis. Crown Vic's are very reliable, require little maintance. However you don't see too many people driving around in Crown Vic's. Ford doesn't market them to the general public. There are specific reasons that Crown Vics are designed the way they are. Most of the Fords american's are driving are SUV's based on trucks. They are reliable because the trucks have to be. I guess I am just trying to say that you should shop for quality, not country of origin. I also agree with the statements Kelly made about Americas need to drive HUGE SUV's that get 10mpg.

[Painful Reality]

----------------

On 12/1/2003 9:24:36 PM paulparrot wrote:

I have to say I side with Kelly on this one: I think he'd be happier in Europe than in China.

----------------

Europe... China...

All commies!

[T2K]

Is it the turkey or are youse guys just acting like a$$hole$?

Keith

[NOSValves]

Trvale,

Seems like everyone is trying to make blanket statements. Making statements like all American cars are crap, or that everything made in Asia sucks, seems illogical to me. There are going to be companies that produce good quality products and companies that produce poor quality products regardless of what country they are produced in. Nobody could possibly defend a statement like "Bose are just as good as Klipsch" because they are both american companies. Now both companies have different customers in mind. Bose knows that nobody is going to hook there speakers up to a Sunfire Signature amp, and they are designed accordingly. Same thing goes for cars. I personally have had much better experience with German and Japanese cars. But that is not to say that Ford can't produce quality automobiles. A car like the Crown Vic was designed to be used in fleets, as in police cars and taxis. Crown Vic's are very reliable, require little maintance. However you don't see too many people driving around in Crown Vic's. Ford doesn't market them to the general public. There are specific reasons that Crown Vics are designed the way they are. Most of the Fords american's are driving are SUV's based on trucks. They are reliable because the trucks have to be. I guess I am just trying to say that you should shop for quality, not country of origin. I also agree with the statements Kelly made about Americas need to drive HUGE SUV's that get 10mpg.

Now that was hitting the nail on the head !! There are great products from all countries ! All american cars are not junk ! All chinese products are not junk ! This is a global economy and we all just need to get used to it.

Craig

[Allan Songer]

My Dad owns a new Mercury Maurader (a hot-rod Crown Vic)--I drove the hell out of it a few weeks ago and all I could think of was that scene in "The Blues Brothers" where Ellwood (or was it Jake?) extoles the virtues of the ex-police car (Cop tires, Cop motor, etc.). It goes like stink, corners flat enough, has room for 5 adults and the biggest plastic dashboard you could ever want! A great car to take cross-country on the interstate! My Dad is 74 years old and this car SUITS him. Bravo to FoMoCo for making the EXACT car my Dad wants--something to rekindle his fond memory of that dual-quad 1964 425 cu in. Buick Rivera I learned to drive in.

So America still makes big, fast, cheap sedans. And like I said, my Chevy Suburbans have been GREAT (and YES they have ALL been used as TRUCKS!). What the US Car companies CAN'T do is make nice, small, fun, cheap cars. They never have and never will. Alice next door has a *****IN' new Mini-Cooper "S" that is so much BETTER in EVERY way than ANYTHING US car companies have to offer in this area of the market it's just plain SAD!

[jazman]

jt,

I believe most NOS tubes from the quality manufactures are superior to most of the current production tubes from China and Russia. I will not say the pricing will be to your liking, but values can be found. That said;

Craig,

I don't know if you realize most web developers will not get out of bed for $650. Maybe it's time you realized that. I also have some problem with your logic that if you disagree with something in America, you should not live here. That's a crock of **** if I ever heard it.

FYI, US auto manufacturers have been more than pleased to sell low production cost, and primitive engineered truck chasis based vehicles as SUV's, at an astronomical markup these recent years of SUV fever. The American public has had a definite "herd" mentality on that issue and seem to buy them as some macho symbol. Most of them buy the beast and seldom if ever make use of 4WD or know how to use it when needed. I lived in the Sierra Mountains for seven winters and never owner a 4WD vehicle. I did however pass a lot of those American SUV's that were laying on their roofs, on the road, and off the side of the road. You have no idea how much mountain dwellers used to laugh at the owners of these rigs. I reserve anyones right to buy them, but also reserve anyones right to critisize them. You seem to be a few politcal science sessions short on this.

BTW, you used the word "drivel". That means maybe you learned something from one of the post I addressed to you. Very good. I have to assume I'm having some small positive influence even though you won't admit it.

Klipsch out.

[NOSValves]

Jazzman,

I'm absolutely sure that you could have a very positive influence and sometimes you do. On the web developer issue I think your very much mistaken they are a dime to a dollar and every where. I have never said I was over charged. I said I was under served and treated poorly ! If I treated my customers like I was treated I would not be buried with amps up to my eyeballs. I truly think you do not know the story here and should refrain from butting in. I didn't bring the issue up Kelly best buddy did I just replied.

I have no problem with people Criticizing this country ! I do have a problem with someone that never has a single good thing to say about it and I think Kelly fits the bill to the tee !

Craig

[mobile homeless]

I tell you what. I would gladly refund the $650 total to remove all the stuff I did for you. It was MERE peanuts for the hours put in. You have been NOTHING but an ungrateful hack since it started. Seriously, I would rather have it all back to ground zero. I did SO MUCH MORE than I was paid for it's sickening.

I am sick of your personal attacks springing up out of nowhere. Your posts are unintelligent, ill conceived, and those that know this have just stopped posting for the most part. We are left with the feeding frenzy of those that dont even realize that you knew ZERO about audio less than 24 months ago. ANd I mean ZERO. I have a string of quotes from you that would turn heads inside out. And all of these stated with authority. You post with utter bombast and call it TRUTH. Christ, look at the post that started this? I was posting about a condition in our country. You ATTACKED me personally. You are so hypocritical. And the worst part? You have no idea.

This forum and those within have enabled you to make a living. And I rue the day I ever did my part in it. I wrote the site. Not only did I write it, but I came up with your company name, did your logo, made your signature, did all the text in the site, posted amps that you had never worked on, made that animation featuring Auricaps, a product that you didnt endorse at the time, and basically shot myself in the foot.

You got a Auricap distributorship from that site. You got calls from Charlie Kittleson from VTV from that site. And you get a lot of gear from that site. What did I get? Endless hours of garbled babble over the phone, a check for $300 that wasnt added to until a year later, all after that site went up as you see it with only this much down. I realized getting money from you was like getting blood from a turnip. I STILL havent even gotten what it's worth. But I dont give a damn. Frankly, I would rather call it a loss. Actually, I would rahter it never existed.

And I was a complete and utter idiot for doing it. Believe me Craig, if I could start over again from that very first post inquiring about "tube amps" you wrote in 2/2001, I would have not answered.

What in the HELL have you done for me???? $650? Go in the real world and see what a logo, site, text, graphics, and whole online presence (including return in Google engines) costs you of that caliber. Now see if you can find someone that KNOWS about audio to do the whole thing.

Frankly, I was ripped a new one, Mr. Tube-aphile.com. That is what I should have let you name your company. It would have cost me the same and you a lot more.

I would GLADLY refund ALL your money. Every cent and call my time a total loss. In fact, I asked you do to this months ago, making an entire site with the $350 worth letting it all go as a loss.

I will send you the full refund. You can keep your name. But everything else, you need to hire someone else to do. I personally have not wanted to be involved with you since about the first phone call. I made the mistake of doing FAR more for less as a favor. And I have gotten near ZILCH fomr my relationship with you but hell. You, on the other hand, have gained FAR more. Less than three amps rebuilds and you have paid for a site, logo, text, graphics...the whole nine yards.

You want to bring out the estimate?

Let do what you started months ago. Lets bring out the whole last worthless two years from beginngin to end. I would love nothing more than to remove everything I did and refund every last cent. If I could role back the clock, it would be a great christmas wish.

kh