Classical Weekend

[maxg]

Wolfram,

Can you get Rachmaninov doing the 3rd on anything other than 78's? I have never seen it on a 33 rpm disk - but if it is out there I will track one down - somehow...

Good call on Horowitz too - any recommended recordings?

Of the 2 concertos (2 and 3) which do you prefer? I am definitely a third man myself but most people seem to prefer the 2nd.

[Bill H.]

The Live preformance of Puccini's - Madame Butterfly still stirs my soul!.............first time I ever heard Opera...................

[garymd]

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On 3/12/2004 1:59:16 AM Proko03 wrote:

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On 3/11/2004 11:04:29 PM garymd wrote:

Another great cd from my library picks turned out to be Vivaldi's, The Four Seasons, 1997 BMG Classics, Freiburger Barockorchester, Dir: Gottfried von der Goltz, The Harp Consort, Dir: Andrew Lawrence-King. Once again I have nothing which to compare but the recording is excellent and it seems to be played with tremendous passion. While I've heard it before, its never been with the concentration and focus I'm giving it now.

Once again, if anyone has any favorites here, by all means please chime in.

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Try Bruckner's 8th, Karajan, Vienna PO, DG 427 611-2. listen to the 4th movement and die.

proko03

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Thanks Proko. Hopefully I'll survive the recording. I appreciate the recommendation.

[johnpbc]

Two personal opera favourites of mine:

Mascagni - Cavallaria Rusticana (Obraztsova/Domingo/Bruson) (Pretre)

- Philips 416 137-2

Puccini - La Rondine (TeKanawa/Domingo) (Maazel)

- CBS M2K 37852

Beautiful "goosebump-producing" music!!

[dubai2000]

Proko03,

so you played under Karajan as well? I am floored...his VPO Bruckner No.8 is a great recording indeed, but so is the Giulini (also VPO/DG).

Of course Karajan is/was in some respects a controversial figure (not only because of his behaviour during the Third Reich, but also because in certain recording -particularly operas - it seems he sometimes had to show who was the real star - hence perhaps also some of his controversial decisions when it comes to his choice of singers). But before you put me into the anti-Karajan camp, let me say that certain composers he did just great (and in terms of orchestra sound the BPO had not many peers during most of his reign).

So which Karajan recordings to choose? The list could be quite long, so lets pick out some highlights:

Apart from the Bruckner mentioned above, I am also very fond of his 1960s cycle of Beethoven symphonies (a bit like Toscanini in stereo sound - if you excuse this simplification), all his R.Strauss is magnificent (the 'Four Last Songs' featuring Gundula Janowitz is pure magic and a MUST in any collection which includes orchestral songs). For opera his Tristan for Jon Vickers; Pagliacci/Cavalleria Rusticana; Salome; perhaps his La Boheme; Madam Butterfly; Otello; Falstaff; ... it piles up again...and don't ignore his DG Sibelius....

Some of his interpretations I had always found kind of strange (for example his DG set of Mozart symphonies) but the other day after having got my current cartridge, I suddenly began to understand what he was striving for. I believe that quite a few of his DG performances (especially 1960s/70s) were simply not that well recorded (curious lack of bass in most of them and a restricted soundstage)or geared towards less than stellar playback gear....so an upgrade in that respect seems to benefit his recording too (in some cases).

Max,

the Rachmaninoff recordings were reissued some years ago by RCA on CD. I suppose getting a vinyl copy (from an earlier date) might be difficult. Anyway, I think in the field of historical recordings modern technology has done something positive to make such treasures a lot more palatable....and if you are into opera, you should get to know great singers of the past (not just in Wagner, but also in Italien opera) -that is pre WWII and in the immediate decades after. Just think of Verdi's Otello as performed by Martinelli and Tibbett (just to pick a recording of a complete opera). Compared to those singers a lot of modern performers 'shrink' quite a lot.

When it comes to the Rachmaninoff concertos I can't tell if I like No. 2 or No. 3 more. They are both great...but I also have a soft spot for his first .

Wolfram

[Proko03]

Wolfram and Max,

Those Rachmaninov concertos, 1-4, have been excelently remasted by Naxos' Mark Obert-Thom, available on 2 discs, Naxos nos.8.110601, 8.110602. Might as well get it from the horses mouth, right? Then hear the Agerich/Chailly for #3 on Phillips, recorded live in Berlin, yours truly in the orchestra.

And yes, I did play under Karajan. I was very young at the time and he was very kind, nodding his official acceptence of my youthful presence. His Beethoven and Bruckner remain formost in my mind. His 60's Beethoven cycle was never surpassed, often as he tried. But far and away the most "not of this world" music making I can recall playing, and will carry with me forever, were the hours, too few, spent with Carlos Kleiber.

proko03

[dubai2000]

proko03,

from time to time I am really very angry with myself that I was too lazy (and ultimately lacked the family background) to become a musician....especially when imagining what it must be like getting in touch with such musical giants.

So what did you perform under Kleiber and how was it different to playing under Karajan (or any other conductor you would like to mention)?

Wolfram

[LarryC]

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On 3/12/2004 2:50:36 PM Proko03 wrote:

Wolfram and Max,

... recorded live in Berlin, yours truly in the orchestra. And yes, I did play under Karajan ... I can recall playing, and will carry with me forever, ... the hours, too few, spent with Carlos Kleiber.

proko03

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Proko,

Maybe I missed it -- what instrument did you play?

Thanks,

Larry

[D-MAN]

Proko03,

Ok, Bruckner's 8th is on my list!

DM

[dubai2000]

I 'revisited' the Karajan VPO mentioned above yesterday and it is indeed very good. If you want to get an idea of an orchestra at full blast, go to end of the final movement... .

If you want to be 'moved', it's as usual the slow movement that does the trick most obviously. Perhaps that's why I suggest Bruckner's No.9 shouldn't be overlooked - which is yet another 'tricky' piece in terms of recordings.

Some options (of many good ones available):

Bruno Walter (Sony)

- perhaps the DG VPO Bernstein -

but certainly the 1962 VPO/Carl Schuricht (EMI) who manages to infuse the mysterious beginning of the symphony with a real sense of tension.

With Bruckner I find it particularly important to feel that the players are really 'stretching' themselves. Bruckner's music just being played without this element of 'conquest' really fails to move (even if the technical parameters are met by the players).

BTW: For those who would like to discover more of Bruckner than No.7-9, try the Naxos set of all his symphonies under Georg Tintner. You even get his early 'study' symphonies and the original version of No.3. Don't be fooled by not seeing the BPO/VPO etc on the cover. Tintner (an Austrian who spent most of his life in Australian and Canada) was actually quite familiar with Bruckner's sound world (having sung as a choirboy in his masses directed by a Bruckner pupil - so it says in the Naxos booklet) and the recordings are certainly decent. So for a relatively modest outlay, you really get recordings worth adding to your collection.

Wolfram

[Parrot]

I borrowed several Bruckner 8s from the library. I can't say the Karajan (1988 version) moved me. I prefer Boulez's or Sinopoli's, with Giulini's being the best overall, especially in the second half.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GNS/qid=1079274808/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-6840608-5214254

Now remember, this is IMHO, and YMMV. Unlike *certain* factual matters in audio which cannot sensibly be disputed, taste in music is personal.

[jt1stcav]

Not to cut in (how did I ever miss this thread?), but I'm thrilled at all the selections listed here; some I'm familiar with, and others completely new to me. And Proko03, what an experience it must be to be a musician! I always wanted to be a concert organist like E. Power Biggs, Dr. Virgil Fox, or Michael Murray. Alas, it was a nice dream, but not being musically inclined, it was never a reality.

My list would also be way too long, but one of my favorite all time organ CDs is:

"The Organ Works of J.S. Bach, Vol. 1"; Jean Guillou, performing on the Kleuker organ of Notre-Dame des Neiges, Alpe d'Huez, France (1990 Dorian Recordings, DOR-90111).

Guillou's registration choices are new and invigorating on these familiar organ pieces, and the little German built organ nestled 6,600' up in the French Alps in "Our Lady of the Snows" church sounds much bigger than it is in this church's clear, warm, 3.5 second reverberant acoustics. This small organ's voices are splendid, providing a wide variety of colors and purity in its individual speaking stops, and also combines the sonic richness of much larger cathedral-sized organs. What makes this particular organ even more exciting is its modern day organ facade; the casework is uniquely hand-shaped in appearance, and has protruding from the case the world's first horizontal oboe stop (8' Hautbois en Chamade...you should hear high-pressured horizontal speaking pipes through horns...breathtaking clarity and dynamics). With all this, plus the wonderfully straightforward 2-mic digital recording...wow, your Klipsch will sound their best, trust me!

[DrPyro]

Speaking of Karajan, I just got the complete set of Karajan's Beethoven Symphonies on SACD. I'm slowly making my way through all of the disks. But so far I'm very impressed, they are very good preformances and seem to be very well converted to SACD. If you are into Beethoven symphonies, this is definatly a REQUIRED set to get!

Chillin' to the 7th at the moment

-Dave

PS: DON'T order if from the set from Amazon, rats said they had it in stock (BS), and then wanted over 2 months to deliver it! Went to Tower records and paid $3 more....You should be able to find the set for about $95.

[dubai2000]

Paul,

yes, musical interpretations are indeed a matter of taste....and not of 'measured truths'....but somehow also of playback equipment...and listening experience. This is not to imply any hidden criticism of another person's preferences (music or gear) but quite a surprising 'discovery'. For many years I found Karajan's recordings far too slick, all polish and no substance (to simplify matters). Well, after all those changes of gear, I suddenly notice that my past reactions to some of his interpretations were perhaps due to a sonic limitations of my previous setup. The most likely culprit might have been the size (or rather smallness) of my former listening room. It seems that especially Karajan's sound world needs breathing space (i.e. a soundstage wide and deep enough to allow each group of instruments to make its mark). Just out of curiosity I got out his mid 1970's BPO Bruckner No.8. Now I don't claim it's siddenly my favourite recording, but with the added space (almost like additional time) the different strands of the last movement certainly make more sense than before. I feel I am able to grasp his musical intentions more easily. So in a sense your big listening area should indeed be an excellent starting point for big orchestral works (no matter who conducts).

So an interesting thread which helped to sharpen my audio awareness a bit more... .

Wolfram

[Parrot]

Wolfram,

Couldn't agree with you more about the benefits of breathing space for symphony recordings with Klipschorns.

Few things are more irritating than playing magnificent orchestral works on bookshelf speakers. Just for fun I had played portions of some of these CDs on my cheapie system next to my computer, the speakers of which also serve as speakers for the computer. Yecch! Why even bother. They'll play plenty loud, but the loudness is thin with no sense of realism to it.

I'll revisit the Karajan Bruckner No. 8 before returning it. I'm not saying it is bad by any means, just a different approach or interpretation than the others. A performance either connects with you or doesn't, to varying degrees. Karajan's simply doesn't move me, at least not now. But I am grateful that there are so many different top-notch interpretations of these classics and that one can prefer different aspects of different recordings.

Proko03,

What are your favorite Prokofiev pieces?

[dubai2000]

Paul,

I admit that I am surprised myself about liking some Karajan performances I didn't take to before (but not the 1988 Bruckner 8th..LOL).

Of course there is an almost endless variety of recordings of most mainstream works...so we can all find our personal favorite (or two).

BTW: In case anybody wants to try Karajan in Richard Strauss (gosh, I sound like a Karajan freak by now ) I would not really go for DG 474281-2. Granted, this 2CD set contains the most popular works, but the recording of the 'Four Last Songs' is comparatively flat (and too brightly recorded) compared to the one with Janowitz (see DG Originals)...which is simply breathtakingly beautiful.

Wolfram

[maxg]

THE Karajan performance for me is the Dvorak New World on Deutche Grammaphon.

Whether it is because it is genuinely one of the best performances or whether it is simply because I have heard it a thousand times and more over the last 20 years or so I cant tell anymore.

But I can tell you that it is my favorite recording of this work out of the 9 or so that I own.

On the subject of favorites - any thoughts on Sherherazade? I have 3 recordings on vinyl and another on CD but am not deleriously happy with any of them. I cant remember the CD conductor but the vinyl ones are:

153 Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade Royal Philharmonic Sir Thomas Beecham EMI ALP 1564 M UK 1

154 Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade Royal Philharmonic Sir Thomas Beecham EMI 14C063-00142 S Greece 1

155 Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade London Symphony Pierre Montreux London STS 15158 S UK 1 ffrr - Treasury Series

(apologies for the layout - straight copy from my spreadsheet)

I had had high hopes for the London recording but sadly it is yet another that has not stood the test of time too well. Right now the Greek version is the best - but that cant be right!!!

Must be something better out there.

[Parrot]

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On 3/15/2004 11:04:21 AM maxg wrote:

THE Karajan performance for me is the Dvorak New World on Deutche Grammaphon.

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Ha! Trying to start a music ruckus are you, Max? Well, my Mahler's "Adagio" from his unfinished Sym. 10, with Sinopoli conducting, challenges your Karajan Dvorak Sym. 9 to an arm wrestle.

Seriously though, you should give it a listen.

[dubai2000]

Max,

what is it you don't like about the Beecham Scheherazade?

I admit to liking it a lot. As alternatives you might try the late Stokowski (1975) with the RPO on RCA (glorious string sound - very seductive) or, also on RCA, Fritz Reiner's Living Stereo. But as said before: I think the Beecham is already pretty good IMO.

Wolfram

[ben.]

My father was over to the house last night and, as usual, our conversation at one point turned to music. His definitive Scherazade is the Reiner LS. And he was quite the composer/conductor in his day.

Good thread, BTW.