jhawk92 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Ok, so while doing research for my dedicated HT, I have been reviewing all sorts of surge supressors, power conditioners, etc. I had basically decided on a Panamax M4400 for my 20A circuit. But then I found out that Panamax, Monster, and most other companies use Metal Oxide Varistors (MOV) in their products. These work fine for a time, but can eventually wear out, sometimes catastrophically. The answer, supposedly, is something called Series Mode (SM) Supressors, which do not wear out, and give better fast response to a surge. MOVs have a Joule rating, and as the surges continue, the joules add up, until finally the part fails. Also, MOV-based suppressors shunt excess voltage to ground, which can contaminate the system. With SM, there is no rating, because they are designed to continue protecting, virtually forever. Also, with SM products, once a spike hits, the unit opens the circuit, so no surge, or excess voltage, enters your system. From what I understand, SM suppressors were originally designed for DoD, after they had MOV failures. So, does anyone have any of these in their systems? SM suppressors seem to be about on-par, cost-wise, with the better Monster and Panamax products. Just interested in first-hand experiences. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Rob............SurgeX I believe Forum member minnesotamale...or whatever (minnmale?)(sorry dude) has more info on them & he can probably get you a deal they don't use cheap varistors http://www.surgex.com/ As far as I can tell, these are some of the best you get, at least for our purposes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I HAD a Panamax. It's dead now. Just stopped dead in its tracks. Won't turn on and its not a fuse problem. Get the Monster ONE-EYE instead - it lasts longer and sounds better. Unfortunately it also costs more. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFinco Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I did the same research and I too ran into the MOV issue. heres the solution for you--trust me. PRICE WHEELER "the brick wall" do your research---there isn't a better protector on the planet. http://www.pricewheeler.com/ this thing is non-destructive, and can take all day long more current than your wall wireing can actually carry. I have one of these, and then a panamax 500 plugged into it. that way, I get the 1 switch turn on, the multiple plug useage but the TRUE protection of the BRICK WALL. NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING can protect as well as this thing. there are cases of people's homes being directly struck with lightning bolts and everything that wasn't plugged into the brick wall was completely destroyed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Check out brick wall's website. They claim they don't use mov's i am in the same predicument. They say tally up all the specs you can and they insist you do. Then compare them with theirs. Theirs is better they say of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Sorry about that i just kind of zoomed down to quickly. My bad. I heard good things about brick wall also. Sorry RFinco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFinco Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 To those who go with the BRICK WALL (and, i couldn't see why you WOULDN'T...except maybe price...) there are 2 types for audio people. there is the 15 amp limit and the 20 amp limit. GET THE 20!! the 15 has been known to be so limiting that it actually stops current that your amp may need. the 5 extra amps really can't hurt your system, and your system will then never hit the overhead power limits. when I got mine 3 years ago they had just built the one for audio people and all it was, was an expensive black cube with 2 outlets and a green light--since then they've built several new units...I WANTTT!!! aggrrggh.... the "rack mount" style with the 10 plugs--thats what I want, but it wasn't available when I bought my gear... its a shame to have something that is soo cool and works that well, yet you *never* know when it works. when it does something that saves my expensive gear it should make a "happy" noise. I'd pay for that sort of add on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Did you hear a difference in sound quality? Could i plug say my rca 8 plug line conditioner into that? That way i could still have the protection and all the plug ins. Because i couldn't afford anymore at the most than the two plug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I use PS Audio'S Power Director 4-7. They have a nice website where you can read about it. They have a Forum also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Has anyone here used Powervar? also what about ac regenerators? My ac sucks and I need suggestions please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFinco Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 ---------------- On 3/12/2004 4:55:38 AM wheelman wrote: Did you hear a difference in sound quality? Could i plug say my rca 8 plug line conditioner into that? That way i could still have the protection and all the plug ins. Because i couldn't afford anymore at the most than the two plug ---------------- good question--to be honest with you I didn't do it for a sound quality type of thing-I did it because there would be no way I could afford to replace my equipment if it got fried for some reason (once I buy a 3000.00 "thing" i usually can't go and buy another one right away...). I wanted something that absolutely, positively would stop everything in its tracks and would not fail..ever. Niles, Panamax, monster and others all despite their bells and whistles could not guarantee me never to fail, nor could they protect against dirty power or severe spikes in power. the brick wall could. The brick wall could stop power that had MULTIPLE surges (the others cannot--one strong one and they're done)at multiple times. And it could stop these surges without needing to be replaced! (thats right! you don't have to buy a new one...EVER!! its non-destructive!) Plus, I like over-kill. I have the 2 plug model which I then plug my panamax unit into which is 8 plugs. so I use the 2 plug box as the catch all and let the panamax be the power-strip. no matter how dirty the power is in my area-my gear is safe. My receiver is the other plug that is used on the brick wall. I checked with Price wheeler about this arrangement, and at the time they said it was fine. Now--they have rack mount type units so I'm sure they would advocate for that. as far as sound goes--thats why I bring up the 15amp vs. 20amp issue--a reviewer once said that the 15amp limit affected his sound which wasn't true of the Power Wedge (this may be but take a look at the price difference AND the power wedge was a line conditioner as well....) and so in answer to this the 20amp version was born. now if I had a few grand to spend I would probably be looking more at something like the RICHARD GRAY POWER STATION and other such products, but for guaranteed protection against everything including a lightning bolt you can't come close for the price to the offerings of PRICE WHEELER. Take a look at their industrial transformers and such that they build--this company knows what they are doing. Read the reviews and such-I know for a fact that there are reviews that talk about "how it sounds" (nothing negative that I found, except for the 15amp being a bit limiting..but they fixed this issue since then..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 RFinco thanks for answering all my questions. So i can hookup my power strip to it. then hook my receiver into the other. Bingo! now i need some casho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Say what you want, I have the Monster HTS 3600 model. It is a really cool unit, looks impressive... And tells me also what AMPS and volts are pulling through my system as well as if everything is working correctly too. Why did I buy it? 1) Insurance in case my house was hit was like 50k or something.. A BIG number. 2) I think the demo too with noisey electricity vs clean was valid. (although I have very clean electricity for now..who knows later or if someone used a power drill or hair dryier in my house if it would affect anything.) 3) I think it was like 300 + - dollars, so not a huge item. 4) Better blacks...on my HDTV for sure, (Subjective, but I felt so) And no appearant noise when it is an almost entirely white picture too. 5) Back to insurance,,,I sleep better knowing it is all hooked up properly and looking/ sounding great. That alone is worth some cash!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 brickwall, zerosurge, and surge-x use the same technology..... great protection.... probably the best you can buy..... http://www.surgex.com http://www.brickwall.com http://www.zerosurge.com additionally, adcom has 2 models that also use series mode technology.... (ACE-615 and ACE-315) http://www.adcom.com/surgesupressors.htm the 15 amp units DO NOT restrict current..... they pass a full 15 amps..... i'm not sure where that rumor started... but it is a load of b.s....... the high monster power units are pretty.... have nice meters.... but a large surge will fry them and very possibly damage your equipment..... and good luck on collecting on the "insurance" from monster..... read the fine print... if any thing was hooked up wrong, if you used a two prong adapter, or several other "exceptions".... monster will NOT pay..... i have two surge-x units .... a rack mount unit for my audio/video system ..... and a floor unit for my computer system.... surge-x has also released a new series designed for home theatre applications.... the empower series.... (i'm not sure if they are available yet) good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 What's usually the cheapest one to get? Money tight an all. Thanks for the alternative, got to have competition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 the entry level 15 amp brickwall unit goes for $169.... http://brickwall.com/prod2r.htm it has 2 outlets.... just plug in a low-cost outlet strip into it for all of your components to plug into..... the top line 20 amp sequencing unit from surge-x retails for about $850..... http://www.surgex.com/products/sx2120seq.html cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 Much abliged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 I need an urge suppresor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFinco Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 ---------------- On 3/12/2004 8:28:56 PM minn_male42 wrote: brickwall, zerosurge, and surge-x use the same technology..... the 15 amp units DO NOT restrict current..... they pass a full 15 amps..... i'm not sure where that rumor started... but it is a load of b.s....... ---------------- Heres your answer Minn. This was started by audiophiles with lots of gear and high current needs. I don't think its "BS" as much as one would believe---BRICK WALL didn't think so either as they released a 20amp version of their product... The (audiophile) 'Brick Wall' AC line filter "...This is the Price Wheeler 'Brick Wall'. Its primary purpose is as a high-energy-absorbing, high reliability series mode surge suppressor, but it also acts as an EMI/RFI filter. It contains a large inductor that is rated to carry 15 amps. However, my 'Brick Wall' emits a slight hum when more than about 1 amp is drawn; for this reason (and a possibly unfounded reluctance to put a big inductor in series with the power amps) I use the 'Brick Wall' only for the CD player and digital preamp. The power amps use a conventional MOV-type Tripplite Isobar modified for remote control." And now...the _new_ audiophile 'Brick Wall'. Somewhat to my surprise Price Wheeler contacted me a number of months ago. Audiophiles visiting my pages had inquired about this device, but were concerned about some aspects of the original 'Brick Wall', primarily hum when large currents were drawn. Apparently sufficient interest was shown that Price Wheeler decided to produce a new model designed to address these matters. I recently received one of the newly redesigned units. The new unit looks MUCH more like a high-end audio component than my original industrial version. Very nice design, both aesthetically and ergonomically. This version is silent even feeding both (main and subwoofer) power amps. No hum, excellent! I was curious about what effects that big inductor might have on the AC voltage when the amps were playing sudden loud sounds (and presumably requiring more current). I attached my trusty RadShack digital voltmeter to the power line and repeatedly played a track (dino roars, stomps, etc) from the loudest CD I own, played as loud as I could stand, both with and without the 'Brick Wall' in the AC line. Normal line voltage variations were greater than any voltage drop caused by the power amps' demand. I am reassured that, in my system at least, all is well. The standard unit is rated at 15 amps, so large Krell, etc. owners should see the Price Wheeler web site for huskier 'Brick Wall' models." http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_117972_1590crx.aspx#reviews -there are 2 reviews here that discuss the possible current limits of the 15amp version. and how they "notice" a difference once they got the 20amp version. When I was doing my research on these 3 years ago or so I did see on the "audiophile" type forums people claiming that they were limiting and such, but I also think that many of these people simply WANTED their very high priced equipment to work better than the much cheaper items from PRICE WHEELER. It might be BS, it might not....who knows. I know that price wheeler responded by making a 20amp version with a 15 amp cord....were they just giving people what they wanted, or did they see this as a realistic issue? If you have very high powered equipment and draw a ton of current it would make sense that the 15amps are limiting.... but I don't think this is a threat to someone with your average stable of high end equipment.... now the EAR or that guy with the wall of Mcintosh stuff....they might have a current problem..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 it may be possible that the early brickwall units had problems..... the current units do not.... and surge-x products have never had any problems... and anecdotal "evidence" is just that..... anecdotal..... even if the original units did "hum", that does not indicate current limiting.... "I know that price wheeler responded by making a 20amp version with a 15 amp cord..." brickwall (price wheeler) does not offer a 20 amp unit with a 15 amp cord..... from their website.... "This unit is designed to work with 20 amp applications. A 20 amp line and outlet is required for this unit to be used." that statement is on the cut sheet for every 20 amp model that brickwall offers.... zerosurge and surge-x are the same.... all of the 20 amp models have 20 amp cords.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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