RFinco Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 ---------------- On 3/13/2004 9:12:16 AM minn_male42 wrote: it may be possible that the early brickwall units had problems..... the current units do not.... and surge-x products have never had any problems... and anecdotal "evidence" is just that..... anecdotal..... even if the original units did "hum", that does not indicate current limiting.... "I know that price wheeler responded by making a 20amp version with a 15 amp cord..." brickwall (price wheeler) does not offer a 20 amp unit with a 15 amp cord..... from their website.... "This unit is designed to work with 20 amp applications. A 20 amp line and outlet is required for this unit to be used." that statement is on the cut sheet for every 20 amp model that brickwall offers.... ---------------- I agree with you--I was just responding as to "where" that current limit rumor came from. I was in no way saying it was definitive proof, just merely how it started. It actually started with a professional "review" and trickled down into the various forums out there... as far as the 20amp with the 15amp cord--that was a type of "stopgap" solution that was offered Immediately upon this becoming a concern-it was the early version of the "AUD" model. Brick wall doesn't offer this version anymore--as you said, its 20amp with 20amp cords now.... As far as the other 2 companies that have been mentioned--when I was doing my research I never once heard about them, which is a shame because competition breeds better product selection. I'm just glad that there are a few companies out there that are getting rid of the "sham" of current protection for consumers. When I was doing my research on this PANAMAX insisted that the destruction of their product was sacrificial--it saved your equipment. they also insisted that this was the only true way to stop current. They had a video showing their product failing and basically catching on fire, but the equipment was safe. I couldn't deal with that sort of BS. What a racket!! ...you know our product works when its destroyed. then, merely buy another one... (this sounds like something the government would endorse) I want to get into an industry where once your product does what its intended to do, it never works again and people happily throw it away and buy another one-especially one where the equipment costs 100s of dollars to the consumer! ..the closest I can think of is "air bags" for cars... I'm just glad that I didn't buy into their bells and whistles and lights and instead got something that will work due to its technology and build not merely because of promises... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 I get a hum when my volume is lower. Of course when you higher it you can not hear it. But the sound is just awesome, but i am concerned about the hum when i lower the volume. Could this be caused by high amp draws. My harman can draw probally up to 40 amperes or more. I noticed i didn't have this problem with any other receiver i owned. My sub does the same thing it has high amps to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ---------------- On 3/13/2004 11:40:45 PM wheelman wrote: I get a hum when my volume is lower. Of course when you higher it you can not hear it. But the sound is just awesome, but i am concerned about the hum when i lower the volume. Could this be caused by high amp draws. My harman can draw probally up to 40 amperes or more. I noticed i didn't have this problem with any other receiver i owned. My sub does the same thing it has high amps to. ---------------- i am sure you didn't mean "40 amperes"..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 I never get a hum at any volume. Just my 2 cents. Monster 3600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ---------------- On 3/14/2004 12:27:10 AM minn_male42 wrote: ---------------- On 3/13/2004 11:40:45 PM wheelman wrote: I get a hum when my volume is lower. Of course when you higher it you can not hear it. But the sound is just awesome, but i am concerned about the hum when i lower the volume. Could this be caused by high amp draws. My harman can draw probally up to 40 amperes or more. I noticed i didn't have this problem with any other receiver i owned. My sub does the same thing it has high amps to. ---------------- i am sure you didn't mean "40 amperes"..... ---------------- Yeah i think i don't know to much about it. But i read a review that my receiver can do that. The manuel says 35 plus. Amps that is i just looked at the manuel. Hell i aint no rocket scientist. That's why i am asking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted March 14, 2004 Author Share Posted March 14, 2004 All- Thanks for the help. Glad to see lots of folks using these products. I had done my research and came up with the same three companies, SurgeX, Brickwall, and Zerosurge. Since they all use the same basic technology (I think Zerosurge was the first), I guess it all comes down to features and price. Since I will have a 20A circuit, I will need something that can support that amount of current, so I'm looking at the following three SurgeX-SX1120 RT Not sure of price on this one, but it does have power conditioning built-in. Is this important? This has 8 outlets in back, one in front Does this come only as rack-mount, or can I get one without the "ears?" Brickwall-RM20 Modular Price on www.brickwall.com is $400, but on www.pricewheeler, it is $449, and the model is the PWRM20AUD, so I am a bit confused on the pricing. This model has 8 outlets in back and two in front, for 10 total. They talk about line filtering, so is this the same as "power conditioning?" They mention isolated recepticals for digital and analog components. Is that preferred? Zero Surge-1MOD20DI Price on www.zerosurge is $429, and it looks like this is identical to the Brickwall product. On another forum, a few people had mentioned that with their Brickwall, they experienced some decrease in the dynamics on their audio system. Not sure if that was because they had a 15A model and their system was drawing more current than the Brickwall could handle, but I certainly don't want to adversely impact my sound; that's why I got Klipsch in the first place! Maybe these were the earlier units that RFinco and Minn_male42 were discussing? I will also be getting some sort of outlet protection for my sub as well as my CRT projector. I will be dropping down a subpanel from my main breaker box, have the 20A circuit for audio components and then 1-2 15A circuits for the sub/PJ and various lighting. Would it be better to look at a solution that could wire into the panel, from someone like SurgeX, and then get a cheap power strip for all the components, or get a unit for the audio rack and a couple stand-alone outlets? I'll also be discussing this with the folks who will be doing the construction. Minn_male42, are you a retailer for any of these products? I'd be happy to go with a fellow forum member when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ---------------- On 3/12/2004 11:02:14 PM wheelman wrote: What's usually the cheapest one to get? Money tight an all. Thanks for the alternative, got to have competition ---------------- Make your own "line conditioner". With 2 .1mF/600V caps and an old piece of line cord with a grounded plug. Sorry for the poor artwork. Paint is not my best subject! It does help clear up the sound of my system by shunting all the hash on the power line to ground before it reaches the amps. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFinco Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 ---------------- On 3/14/2004 9:57:02 AM jhawk92 wrote: Brickwall-RM20 Modular Price on www.brickwall.com is $400, but on www.pricewheeler, it is $449, and the model is the PWRM20AUD, so I am a bit confused on the pricing. This model has 8 outlets in back and two in front, for 10 total. They talk about line filtering, so is this the same as "power conditioning?" They mention isolated recepticals for digital and analog components. Is that preferred? On another forum, a few people had mentioned that with their Brickwall, they experienced some decrease in the dynamics on their audio system. Not sure if that was because they had a 15A model and their system was drawing more current than the Brickwall could handle, but I certainly don't want to adversely impact my sound; that's why I got Klipsch in the first place! Maybe these were the earlier units that RFinco and Minn_male42 were discussing? ---------------- line filtering at this level of product = power conditioning. you can spend thousands on power conditioners so its important to know that there is a distinction--but at this price point the terms are somewhat interchangeable. Isolated recepticles is preferred. it eliminates what they call "crosstalk". which, I don't know what it is per se, but I'm guessing I don't want it. heres a little snipet from a review about that: " The "AUD" suffix refers to audio, and 8R15AUD has some specific features just for that. The main difference is the inclusion of isolated receptacles. This, according to the manufacturer, eliminates crosstalk between receptacles where, say, dirty digital components muck up the sound of the other components. The 8R15AUD also features improved EMI/RFI shielding." DECREASED DYNAMICS ISSUE: yes, this is what Minn_Male and I were discussing. there were claims that due to the brick wall being a current limiting device that their dynamics suffered with the 15amp model. I think, after reading about it further that IF this was an issue, it WAS ONLY AN ISSUE WITH VERY POWER HUNGRY SYSTEMS. so this became a complete non-issue Brick wall began offering a 20amp version. the ORIGINAL 15amp version was never made for audio use--it was for industrial shops and such. Audio people just found its technology to be quite useful and adopted the product. When PRICE WHEELER found this out they began offering this in the AUD model, and that "hum" issue completely disappeared, and they designed the unit for audio useage. there are quite a few reviews out there for the BRICK WALL-some quite technical. they can give you more insight into that side of things. I like my unit-its silent, it's hidden and its always on. If I had more money I'd buy one for every expensive electronic item in my house... hopefully this answers your questions-if you have more, just ask. and, FYI the model I have is: PW2RAUD. I wish I could get the one you are looking at...this wasn't a model that existed when I purchased... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 RF- Thanks for the follow-up. I had figured the line filtering = power conditioning, but just wanted to be sure. I am amazed at how much you can spend on power products, but something like this will work into my budget. Good to know about the isolated recepticles. I suppose every little bit helps, as long as it doesn't break your budget. Good to know about the dynamics issue. I figured it might have been something about trying to pull too much current through the box, but if they have it solved with the AUD unit, so much the better. I'll check for more reviews, as I don't have to make a purchase for another month or so. I was thinking about getting a couple of separate, smaller, protectors, one for sub and one for PJ, so the PW2RAUD sounds good, but then I add another $500 total to the budget, so I'm up to about $1k. Thinking it might be better to see if there is something that can protect the entire panel, for the same amount. I'll keep researching. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 11:44:42 AM jhawk92 wrote: I was thinking about getting a couple of separate, smaller, protectors, one for sub and one for PJ, so the PW2RAUD sounds good, but then I add another $500 total to the budget, so I'm up to about $1k. Thinking it might be better to see if there is something that can protect the entire panel, for the same amount. I'll keep researching. Thanks ---------------- surge-x offers nema panels that you put next to your main power panel in your house to protect a dedicated circuit.... http://www.surgex.com/products/sx15_20ne.html i believe these panels are in the $350 to $400 range.... available in a 15 amp and 20 amp versions.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 Thanks minn. Maybe this is what I need to get so everything is protected. Then just get a cheaper outlet strip for all the components. Do you think most contractors know about SurgeX or related brands, or is this something I should get on my own and have them install? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 12:23:35 PM jhawk92 wrote: Thanks minn. Maybe this is what I need to get so everything is protected. Then just get a cheaper outlet strip for all the components. Do you think most contractors know about SurgeX or related brands, or is this something I should get on my own and have them install? ---------------- most contractors do not know about surge-x products..... contact surge-x and find your local supplier.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 ---------------- On 3/14/2004 11:38:23 PM RFinco wrote: Isolated recepticles is preferred. it eliminates what they call "crosstalk". which, I don't know what it is per se, but I'm guessing I don't want it. heres a little snipet from a review about that: ---------------- Crosstalk is what happens when one device picks up static from another device in the same chain from its ground. Typically the only units that really suffer from crosstalk are the TV and the amplifier - so isolating them is #1 priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 minn- Thanks, will do. I guess this would be a more efficient use of money than several Brickwall products. Now I guess I just need to find a 20A power strip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 unless you are running some component that requires 20 amps, any 15 amp strip will work fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 minn- I'll be putting 8 components on the strip, three power amps, a receiver acting as pre/pro, DVD, CD, cable box, VCR. I think the 3 power amps will be pretty close to 15A right off, 7x120W, and add in the receiver, so I may be over that 15A limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Jhawk - your best bet is to invest in at least two of these monsters - two big power amps will suck up most of that available 20 amps - never mind the 15 amps delivered by a lightweight surge protector... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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