Pipe Organ Reference CD recommendations needed

[greg928gts]

Just thought I'd bump this great thread from many years ago. I plan to look for some of the recordings mentioned here.

Greg

[Mallette]

Instruments of Thy Praise

I'll not go into this again as the link takes you to a site that will link you both to my rather lengthy review of this extraordinary set from a couple of years ago, as well as to the St. Martins bookstore, which remains rather inexplicably the only place you can get a copy.

However, I must also recommend in the same terms George's last solo recording on the Schoenberg at St. Martin's, a tour de force of both that instrument as well as organ literature in general. I am at work and cannot at the moment recall the album title, but the bookstore church ladies will know.

I rave about George in the above linked review, so I'll just leave it here that he is a figure every bit as talented as Virgil, Michael, and E. Power while further armed with compositional, conducting, and arranging skills equal to any music generalist alive. If that weren't enough, his oversight of the design of the 80 rank, 68 voice Schoenberg instrument resulted in what is, in my opinion, the finest instrument both in terms of its range and sonic tapestry but also in its match to the magnificent acoustics of the immense St. Martin's church. Add to that the "double expression" swell and it's all pure magic that suggests we may listen in heaven and wish we were back at St. Martins...

Finally, Todd Hulsander is one of the few engineers of the digital age in whom I find almost nothing to critique. As George said when he first heard "Instruments" in my listening room, "It sounds just like the church."

'nuff said about that.

Finally, I looked through this thread to ensure I wasn't going to be redundant as I assumed I'd posted in it. Not sure how I missed it at the time but I found not a word. However, I must note it's been a while since I've heard anything from Jim and Dr. Bill and miss both a lot. The instrument Jim referenced is now somewhere up north and I just missed recording it by a year or so. Dr. Bill was rector of the church in Hope and vicar of the little church in Magnolia, AR where I went to school. It was from him I learned much of my early technical knowledge of pipe organs and through his good offices I met Paul Klipsch.

Thanks for the resurrection, Greg. Some good memories of many things past here for me.

Dave

[garyrc]

I have a quick question about the pipe organs- why would that bottom c be tuned to 16 hz, which is generally recognized as being a frequency that is inaudible to human beings? I always thought that the bottom limit was 18-20 hz. Are k-horns really capable of hitting notes that low? That's really impressive! Most subs can't even hit notes like that. I personally prefer works by Bach, my all-time favorite from the late baroque period.

• @ 16 Hz you feel the sound in your bones and flesh. You may also feel a breeze. You hear something, clearly, but it may be composed primarily of overtones. Yet, it sounds like the deepest bass possible. At the old Fox theater in San Francisco they had a net under the 16 Hz pipe -- which was hanging from the ceiling, parallel to it and the floor -- to catch the plaster, which fell when that pipe sounded.
• The old High Fidelity magazine review of the Klipschorns said that they extended to 25 Hz, and also to 20, but with some doubling. Mine, in the right room (not the current one) could go to 31.5 with a little rise there, and on one of my old vinyl disks that went to 25, they produced a relatively clean sound at 25, attenuated.

[Mallette]

You may also feel a breeze.

Most people think I'm nuts when I mention this. There are several instruments where I've felt that breeze a few moments after a mighty chord, like that of the finali of the Saint Saens 3rd or similar.

Exhilarating!

Dave

[LarryC]

I have a quick question about the pipe organs- why would that bottom c be tuned to 16 hz, which is generally recognized as being a frequency that is inaudible to human beings? I always thought that the bottom limit was 18-20 hz. Are k-horns really capable of hitting notes that low? That's really impressive! Most subs can't even hit notes like that. I personally prefer works by Bach, my all-time favorite from the late baroque period.

• @ 16 Hz you feel the sound in your bones and flesh. You may also feel a breeze. You hear something, clearly, but it may be composed primarily of overtones. Yet, it sounds like the deepest bass possible. At the old Fox theater in San Francisco they had a net under the 16 Hz pipe -- which was hanging from the ceiling, parallel to it and the floor -- to catch the plaster, which fell when that pipe sounded.

My perception is that a 16 Hz C (actually, it's closer to 17 Hz) by itself needs to be held for a long time to be perceived as a definite note. I'd bet that to be heard as a clear C, it needs to be combined with an octave-higher 32 Hz note, which effectively serves as an overtone. The combination of the two notes would synergize into a definite note with added 16-Hz power.

A similar effect is frequently heard in the doubling of cellos and basses in octaves in classical music, where the bass notes are clearly defined primarily by the cellos, while the basses add a depth and power that the basses alone can't provide.

I do believe that the bass response of K-horns drops quite rapidly below 33-40 Hz, but that some rooms can bring out lower Hz's. Still, I also believe I hear/feel, IMO, the 18-36 Hz notes in the slow movement of the Munch recording of the Saint-Saens 3rd, where the score indicates "32 pieds" (32 feet, in French). Those notes must be seriously boosted!

One way to remember Hz vs. ft. for the lowest notes: a 16-ft. pipe produces a 32-Hz low C, whereas a 32-ft. pipe produces a 16-Hz low C.

[LarryC]

NERD TIME!

To clearly hear how adding the basses an octave below the note-defining cellos adds to the depth and power, call up this Youtube of Beethoven's 2nd symphony first mov't:

.

Now, go to min. 2:55 by using the slider at the bottom. Listen to the lighter-weight cellos start the allegro theme by themselves, followed by almost the same phrase but with the basses jumping in below. It's only about 10 sec., and you can hear the effect very clearly IMO.

Of course, it's a great listen to hear it all the way through.

Larry

[garyrc]

I have a quick question about the pipe organs- why would that bottom c be tuned to 16 hz, which is generally recognized as being a frequency that is inaudible to human beings? I always thought that the bottom limit was 18-20 hz. Are k-horns really capable of hitting notes that low? That's really impressive! Most subs can't even hit notes like that. I personally prefer works by Bach, my all-time favorite from the late baroque period.

• @ 16 Hz you feel the sound in your bones and flesh. You may also feel a breeze. You hear something, clearly, but it may be composed primarily of overtones. Yet, it sounds like the deepest bass possible. At the old Fox theater in San Francisco they had a net under the 16 Hz pipe -- which was hanging from the ceiling, parallel to it and the floor -- to catch the plaster, which fell when that pipe sounded.

My perception is that a 16 Hz C (actually, it's closer to 17 Hz) by itself needs to be held for a long time to be perceived as a definite note. I'd bet that to be heard as a clear C, it needs to be combined with an octave-higher 32 Hz note, which effectively serves as an overtone. The combination of the two notes would synergize into a definite note with added 16-Hz power.

A similar effect is frequently heard in the doubling of cellos and basses in octaves in classical music, where the bass notes are clearly defined primarily by the cellos, while the basses add a depth and power that the basses alone can't provide.

I do believe that the bass response of K-horns drops quite rapidly below 33-40 Hz, but that some rooms can bring out lower Hz's. Still, I also believe I hear/feel, IMO, the 18-36 Hz notes in the slow movement of the Munch recording of the Saint-Saens 3rd, where the score indicates "32 pieds" (32 feet, in French). Those notes must be seriously boosted!

One way to remember Hz vs. ft. for the lowest notes: a 16-ft. pipe produces a 32-Hz low C, whereas a 32-ft. pipe produces a 16-Hz low C.

All of the above seems quite plausible.

Could this be happening during the long first bass rumbling chord of "Thus Spake Zarathustra?" On some recordings it sounds like several octaves of C (is it C ? It's been a while, and I don't really have absolute pitch), one of which is mighty low. On broadcast TV, when they run 2001: a Space Odyssey, only the top part seems to come through, but on Blu-ray, and, as I remember in the 70 mm version in the theater, there is that extremely deep bass substrate, which might be an unidentified pitch if heard alone, but gains defitition from the doubling of the higher octave (s). My K-horns roll of (in the room they are in now) somewhere in the low 30s, and the sub which runs without the Khorns being cut off, if I want it that way, is speced to about 20, but rolls off too, but they sound like they go lower than a 20 Hz test tone on that opening chord. For that matter, the speakers in the 70 mm theaters of 1968 (when 2001 was playing) were conservatively and nominally speced at about 40 (no subs in those days), but they sure seemed to go much lower with the lowest C of that chord, and they did have those huge wooden baffles between the speakers. The one I saw seemed to fill the entire width of the screen (5 speakers plus the baffles). Was there baffle gain, like room gain, reinforcing the frequencies below spec?

Related? I wish I had that old Scientific American article "Binaural Beats in the Brain," that reported that the beats at about 1/2 of the pitch of two bass resonaters sounding at once can happen in the brain itself (subjects wearing headphones, one tone in each ear) rather than having to happen out in the air.

[Chris A]

Maybe some more for enjoyment. These are CDs or SACDs

Bach The Four Great Toccatas and Fugues Played Simultaneously By E. Power Biggs
SACD surround, Sony SS87983
(This one is most impressive cranked up on the main rig downstairs running 5.1)

The Bach Gamut - Virgil Fox Live in San Francisco 1976
Reference Recordings RR-107
(This one has a lot of audience noise, but it's Virgil Fox at his best)

Virgil Fox Encores: Bach, Widor, Purcell, Handel
Sony BMG 82876-71626-2 (SACD surround [3-channel])
(This one is cleaned up from original master tapes - very good.)

Bach at St. Bavos - Michael Murray
Telarc CD-80286
(This performance is a little tame in terms of interpretation compared to the the preceding recordings.)

There are many on vinyl, too - but these are hard to find and are usually in not very good shape. Many that I listen to are by the same artists as above, but there is one by Maurice and Marie-Madeleine Durufle ("Bach Organ Music") that is amazing in its interpretation of the Preludes, Toccatas, Fantasia - and Fugues: Angel-EMI S-36507.

Chris

[LarryC]

Could this be happening during the long first bass rumbling chord of "Thus Spake Zarathustra?" On some recordings it sounds like several octaves of C (is it C ? It's been a while, and I don't really have absolute pitch), one of which is mighty low. On broadcast TV, when they run 2001: a Space Odyssey, only the top part seems to come through, but on Blu-ray, and, as I remember in the 70 mm version in the theater, there is that extremely deep bass substrate, which might be an unidentified pitch if heard alone, but gains defitition from the doubling of the higher octave (s).

The score shows it's complicated: the opening of Also is comprised of a 32-Hz contrabassoon low C, string bass 32-Hz and 16-Hz C's in octaves, and a low C played by the organ. However, the written organ C depends on the rank chosen; it could be 64 Hz, 32 Hz, or 16 Hz [EDIT] or some combination of these, depending on the stop(s) chosen by the organist.

So, the low C is better defined by the string bass octaves and the fact that the contrabassoon has audible overtones, [EDIT] which makes its notes more distinct.

A bass drum is also playing! A bass drum does NOT play notes with definite pitch, so it adds vagueness and very deep tones. It tends to take on the pitch of other bass instruments, so it sounds like it's reinforcing 32- and 16-Hz notes.

Thus, the opening C is a mix of added definition and vagueness from the bass drum.

[Mallette]

Interesting analysis, Larry!

Bach The Four Great Toccatas and Fugues Played Simultaneously By E. Power Biggs
SACD surround, Sony SS87983
(This one is most impressive cranked up on the main rig downstairs running 5.

Yum. The great Freiburg recording. I have a couple of LP copies of this, one in the original SQ quad that decodes so-so through DPLII. I didn't know there was a SACD! I'll have to chase it down. 1 bit transcoded direct from those great RR tapes it SHOULD be outstanding if they didn't muck around with it.

I've avoided mentioning LP's as the thread owner specified CD. However, the wealth available on vinyl is transcendent, especially the Biggs and Fox legacy, as well as lesser known names like Helmut Walcha et al.

Dave

[Chris A]

...Helmut Walcha...

This is very interesting -- I've got a few LPs by this guy on his church organ (small by today's standards). I listen for his interpretation and while his organ itself doesn't have the LF end of the great organs, the performances by Mr. Walcha are engaging, to say the least. I think that I've got some Buxtehude by him, but I need to go check it out.

If you are an organ masters aficionado, then this guy is a master. By the way--Walcha was blind like so other organ virtuosi in Europe of that period. Amazing.

Chris

[Mallette]

I've got a few LPs by this guy on his church organ (small by today's standards).

Don't let fini see that line...[]

That's true, but the instruments on which he recorded include Silbermann's, Schnitger's and other instruments Bach played or was aware of. Back and Silbermann were friends. While Back sounds and works great on anything from a harmonica to the Wanamaker with full orchestra, there is a certain something to hearing it as close to the way he did that is exciting.

I think ol' Helmut channeled Bach...

Dave

[garyrc]

Great post, Larry, nice detail!

[Mallette]

Bach The Four Great Toccatas and Fugues Played Simultaneously By E. Power Biggs
SACD surround, Sony SS87983
(This one is most impressive cranked up on the main rig downstairs running 5.1)

And, I've found, the rarest of the rare. Appears to be highly regarded and sought after, and out of print. Got's to get one somehow...

Dave

[Mallette]

I can't recommend these, as I've never tried one. I stumbled on to this site whilst in search of the Freiburg SACD (no luck there-sigh). Further, I am personally familiar with the vicissitudes of LP to CD transfer so I'm skeptical until I hear one.

However, excellence IS possible and these folks seem to be really scouring for unique organ LPs not otherwise available. Given the subject matter seems reasonable they'd do it right.

For one thing, the OTHER Freiburg album Biggs cut while there is here...and even though I am a Biggs collector I didn't even know there was such a thing.

If anyone tries one, let us know how it sounds.

Dave

[garyrc]

One of my favorites, more for the other instruments than the organ, is Sonic Fireworks by Crystal Clear Records. I think I cited the wrong title earlier. It has the best version (IMO) of Fanfare for the Common Man. Khorns love it. It was a direct to disk, still available on the aftermarket, BUT they also recorded it open reel magnetic analog tape. Even the cassette version had unbelievable sound, with the inevitable hiss, and I usually hate cassettes. The CD has vanished for now, but if someone has the master tape cut at the same time as the direct to disk, they should issue a SACD/CD hybrid, &/or a Blu-ray audio. It is one of the best recordings I have ever heard.

[m54]

interesting thread!

We have a few exceptional tracks that we use for Klipsch Inc.subwoofer development (hint), and one of my favorites is a Telarc recording of Michael Murray.

Needless to say, quality recordings of pipe organs serve as dynamic, brutal and fantastic test tracks. But with that said, one must hear/feel an actual pipe organ in all its acoustic glory, in a large cathedral or concert hall, to grasp the room shudder of the lowest notes. A full body experience.

And a lofty goal in audio reproduction for subwoofer designers.

get ready

--Mark Casavant

[Mallette]

We have a few exceptional tracks that we use for Klipsch Inc.subwoofer development (hint), and one of my favorites is a Telarc recording of Michael Murray.

Woooo...Should be interesting! I love that Murray as well. The Franck B Minor on there has what I have dubbed "quiet bass" that is trully wonderful. That is a very old CD and atypically good for the period in which it was recorded.

Casavant

Hmm...Any relation to the Freres? []

Dave

[m54]

Actually... my father's parents are from Quebec, so there is a family thread I'm sure...

I found out later that my Dad's first name (on his birth certificate) was Joseph, even though he went by Roderick.

It adds up, because I am a bass freak

[gjdob1812]

Hello ! As a Klipsch Forum "Newbee" I'd like to weigh in on a thread that I have found to be of particular interest to me. I do appreciate the notion of certain Organ literature as great potential for speaker test material. May I suggest that we go a step further with serious consideration toward the Organ in a symphonic setting or with other combinations of instruments. Someone has already mentioned the opening of the Richard Strauss work, "Also sprach Zarathustra" . What a powerful piece of music offering a full dynamic range within a few opening measures. In particular, the old Fritz Reiner recordings on RCA,(Living Stereo), with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, still hold their own. They were recorded in the late 50's and early 60's when Stereophonic recordings were coming of age. Then there's the last movement of the Symphonic work horse by Saint-Saens which often goes by the nick name "The Organ Symphony". What a powerful moment when that organ finally makes an appearence - it's well worth the wait.

Finally, I'd like to bring to the Forums attention a series of recordings by the Dallas Wind Symphony. Someone else on this thread has already mentioned the Reference Recording label out of San Francisco. The Dallas Wind Symphony and Reference Recordings have had an ongoing project since 1990. Reference specializes in producing recordings to satisfy the sonic appetites of the most discriminating audiophiles. I should give Grammy award winning Prof. Johnson and his 24 bit HDCD recording techniques well deserved credit. He is a genius at what he does. I'll try to stop sounding like a snob long enough to explain that I have been a member of the DWS for over 20 years and have participated on each of our albums with Reference (16 or 17 so far). I am proud of the work we have done to promote outstanding Band Literature played at a very high level.

I will list our last 3 CD's and strongly suggest the that there is material on each cd which will provide musical enjoyment. Some of it will test even the best 2 channel systems: Crown Imperial RR112 - Recorded in Dallas' Meyerson Symphony Center with the Lay Family Organ (A Fisk organ I believe - it's one huge mother!) The title piece from the album, Crown Imperial, is a great Coronation March by William Walton. The piece has a quiet beginning, but be patient, eight munutes into the work the Organ gets involved and it gets pretty exciting. Some nice examples of bass drum hits too. Be patient - it really gets reved up at the end. Garden of Dreams RR108 - This is the only one of our CD's which was not recorded in the Meyerson. We used the sancturary of a large Methodist church in Plano TX., just north of Dallas. This CD fearures the cutting edge wind literature of David Maslanka. This is very emotional and thought provoking music. Massive blocks of sound in places. Great for speaker testing. Mainly wind band. Lots of percussion. Lincolnshire Posy RR117 - Featuring the music of Percy Grainger, this album has some of the most tuneful and pleasing music of all of our CD's. He contributed greatly towards advanving the cause of band music worldwide. Grainger was born in Australia, but spent a lot of time traveling the English countryside where he found much folk music to incorporate into his pieces. Grainger finally settled in White Plains, New York, where he died in 1961.

Thanks for letting me share some of this info. There is nothing wrong with stand alone organ music. It's just that when it can be found as a participant in a diversified ensemble of instruments, that just seems to add to the fun. -- Gary Dobbins