TBrennan Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Grifin---Nobody but you is talking about whether or not people should be allowed to buy expensive wire. (Though one must wonder where you stand on consumer fraud; do you think that as long as the mark is happy there's no fraud?) What I'm getting at is the truth of how the devices we use in this hobby work; what effects they have and what they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 So now the anti-cable choice group argument is no longer just "My position is correct because science says so." It has changed to "My position on cable exemplifies a type of behavior which, applied globally, makes the world a better place."??? Come on. Do you realize how many people in the world can't tell the difference between the sound produced by a solid state amp and tube amplification - much less a KT88 vs a 45? It's frickin' stereo equipment - not black market uranium dealing. Don't like the high dollar interconnect? Swell. Buy something else. Like the $1400.00 speaker cables? Knock yourself out - you made the money, you spend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Kev---So the truth of how things really work has nothing to do with it? Just so long as people are happy? How about the anxiety that the existence of overpriced wire and the hype behind it creates in the poor fools who want it and can't afford it? Ahhh, conmen and hucksters love to create anxieties in the weak. And that's aces with you? Cmon Kev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ---------------- On 3/27/2004 4:42:30 PM TBrennan wrote: Kev---So the truth of how things really work has nothing to do with it? Just so long as people are happy? How about the anxiety that the existence of overpriced wire and the hype behind it creates in the poor fools who want it and can't afford it? Ahhh, conmen and hucksters love to create anxieties in the weak. And that's aces with you? Cmon Kev. ---------------- Come on, man. That's a total straw man argument and you know it. "poor fools who want it and can't afford it" Gimme a break. The only people that are blowing ridiculous amounts of money on silver wire are also the people who have the disposable income to buy $20,000 TT's, $5K/channel tube amps, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soeren Basboell Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 One of the problems about double blind test is, that they can only inform about what your counscience knows. The musical values, whatever that is, is mainly working on the subcounscious level, which has a calculation power in the order of 10E6 times greater than that of the counscious part of the brain. Therefore your subcounscience can detect differences which you do not know directly, but it can be seen i your pleasure to listen to music, blood pressure etc. My point is in general, that DB tests are more than doubtful as a tool for selecting a system or a part of it. I have in many years tried to find other ways for doing it, based on some secondary reactions to auditive stimuli. Søren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Grifin---What, you deny that marketing works by creating tensions and anxieties that must be worked-off by the purchase of merchandise? Hell Griffin, I know it works that way, it works with me. Just not with wires; nice shoes though, I like nice shoes. Just bought some Allen Edmonds tassle loafers last week, nice. American made too. But in a DB test I'm just as ugly with the new shoes as before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 The arguments over double blind testing have been going on for decades and probably will continue forever. But like Tom says, what are we supposed to talk about here otherwise? I think it's fair to say that everyone could tell big differences in a double blind test no matter how nervous they felt in a testing situation. Let's say, the difference between a Heresy and a Klipschorn. So what is it about a double blind test that would make small differences impossible to distinguish, and yet these small differences could be distinguished when you can look at the product you're hearing? Some of this is a language problem in describing scale. It's understandable if someone lays out $1000 for something, whatever it may be, and he says it makes a night and day difference. Maybe it would be more accurate if he said it made a subtle difference, maybe one tenth of one percent, but that to him that one tenth of one percent difference was worth the $1000. To my way of thinking, if the particular $1000 product in question really made a night and day difference, he should be able to identify it 100% of the time in a double blind test. I wonder what it is about audio that seems to make people so easily influenced by other people's opinions? I don't think this goes on with video so much. Does a dealer say, "See how much better that picture is. Blah blah blah." No, because most people are pretty certain about what they see, and if they think the picture is good or not. But in audio, there is a lot more room for mischief. If the potential buyer doesn't hear the superiority of the equipment that the dealer is pushing, he is setting himself up for potential embarrassment. It would be admitting that he does not have as good of ears as the dealer, or as discriminating of taste. To make it all the more crazy, the supposedly golden ear dealer may not be hearing anything different either, but just be wanting to push a $500 pair of interconnects because he can make $250 profit on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 C&S, I wasn't sure I was tracking everything you were saying... but wanted to check that out to see if I'm understanding. I think I'm hearing you say that you are surprised that people would be changing out interconnects when there are greater bang for the buck changes with exchanging speakers, or other components. Right? Where I'm coming from is a pretty skeptical and cynical perspective on hyped marketing and useless audiophile gear. My favorite example is cable piers/risers. They make your system sound better by getting the speaker cables up off the floor. Essentially, I am from the wire is wire school. While I have never discerned any difference in actual speaker wire run from amp to speaker, I have been genuinely surprised at the difference in sound that interconnects can make. Now, I also have to disclaim that there seem to be things that make systems sound different, not better. I can't imagine, but know there are people who've got more in their interconnects than I've got in my system. That is a little hard to get my mind around. However, if they are happy with it, I'm actually not bothered by it. It is genuinely curious to me how people would spend that kind of money on such, and that there's enough people that do it to keep those vendors in business selling high dollar snake oil. While that leaves me scratching my head, it is not really bothersome to me. Now, was I understanding you to be making a case that an enterprise such as this would (or could) be harmful to you or society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckears Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ssh, You are unfortunately seeing why I do not initiate posts in this particular forum about interconnects... there are too many members waiting to jump on anyone who dares to suggest that interconnects make a difference. Ignore them. I am confident in what I have perceived as the differences between the different cables I have used; I am comfortable with the money I have paid to get the cables and resulting sound I want. Those who beg to differ either cannot or have not heard the difference, and that's them. You and I and MANY other audiophiles know what we hear, and if you want to share this experience, I would recommend the Home Theater Spot Manufacturer Brand Wiring and Cables group, where the founder of the Spot (Paul Carleton) has banned any "cables are just cables" threads. As much as I agree with so many of the Klipsch forum members about the wonderful sound of Klipsch speakers, the cable question is one I try to avoid (except to agree with and defend cable-proclaimers), given the kind of response you are receiving now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Does the subconcious mind control the amount of goose bumps one gets when listening to music (oh c'mon, don't tell me I'm the only one)?? As far as blind A-B tests... the only one I've taken part in was the speaker wire test at Klipsch last June2003. They had some braided expensive wire and some zip cord and an A-B-X test set-up. The user heard "X" (either A or and then could choose to listen to A and B as often as desired, then decide if A or B was X. I think each person who did this test listed to about 20 trials. No one got more than 60% or so. In other words, a monkey would have done just as well. According to Klipsch, no one had ever gotten up in the 80-90% range (the range needed to statistically say that the listener could correctly differentiate between A and . Is this type of test worthless? I personally don't think so. This test isn't even about what's better, just if you can even hear a difference (long term sub-concious mega-thoughts aside). In spite of all this, I still trust goose bumps. Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 In the audio realm, I guess because I didn't really believe in it at the time, I didn't set up my system so it would be fun or even convenient to be changing speaker wires. As it turns out I have such a full plate with speakers (tri-amped!), crossovers (electronic and passive), amp upgrading, tube rolling, preamps, turntables, cartridges, upgrading cheesy component interconnects with solid diy, record cleaning, etc. that I don't see getting to the speaker wire tweaking anytime soon. I have already been acused of not really being an audiophile anyway. Basically I have a hard time belieiving that whatever little differences it might possibly make in my set up cannot be on the order of magnitude as the things that are actually understandable which currently occupy most of my attention, like tracking down which cap contributes to which miniscule hum, that is mysterious enough, but alas explainable, just hard to pin down sometimes. The mysteries around the ground loops just on a single chassis is enough mystery for me..... let alone entertaining some of the outlandish conjectures used to sell custom speaker wire....{my favorite being the one about cables having "direction", electrons, it seems, prefer one direction over another.....}. Can you hear the difference when you reverse the direction of your wires? I find that it adds a pleasant "behind the beat" quality to jazz....kind of like a Miles with his back to the audience kind of effect......If you like a bluesy sound then try reversing your speaker wires.....check it out and get back to us.....(retorical addressing....) I find it hard to understand how the ac signal in these short runs of wire translates to perceptible difference coming through my speakers. Before I start taking apart my house to change my wires, I want to witness and hear an actual A-B-C-D comparison in a high end audio shop, in which "A" is the wire I use and B,C, & D are these other thing$. .....remember those "mystery houses" where the tall guy looks shorter than short guy etc. they should have houses of audio mystery....man I would pay a $2 admission anytime......to see this stuff...... As for the other implications regarding whether people make choices based on things knowable .........uhghhch......about as fun for me to think about as the inevitable bloody religious wars around the corner.......and the frustrations of watching it unfold..... in spite these many hundreds of years of socalled "enlightenment". Politics never liked the potential liberating power of science so they called in their religious goon squads....the rest is history. -K6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 The only issue I have with the June 2003 A/B/X you refer to is that it's really impossible to do a true double-blind A/B with speaker wire. Think about it a moment. How did they set this test up? Different speakers on same amplifier? Nope. Not gonna work because of location. A switch between the two wires? The electrical current passing through that switch is going to alter the characteristics of current going through both wires, making them sound more similar than if they were free to straight-run to the crossover. No way to do same speakers, different amp. That's just out of the question - you still need some kind of switch, and you still have an integrity issue with "exact" specs on the amplifiers. So how does one perform a true A/B or A/B/X with speaker wire without poisoning the signal in some way? I did a true blind A/B test with a friend of mine when I bought my SACD player last year. On a whim, I bought a set of Monster 400 interconnects from work. The Sony had two pairs of stereo L/R outs. I plugged the pair of wires that came with the unit into the CD input on my Onkyo pre. Plugged the Monster 400's into the Tape Monitor input. Invited him over to have a listen to the new deck. Didn't tell him which was which, but as soon as he got used to the source material a bit (it was A Saturday Night in San Francisco) I switched off of the 400's to the cheapy connectors. His jaw nearly fell on the floor. He was like "what the hell happened?! It sounded so good, now it's just kinda 'blah'!" I switched back over to the Monsters. He couldn't and wouldn't believe it until I showed him the wires on the back of the pre. Notice, I pulled reverse psychology. The stock "try the crap first, then the good stuff" is always met with "the second choice is almost always perceived to be better" arguments. That's why I did it backward - to make certain there was no mistaking the difference. I haven't figured out a way to do an accurate A/B or A/B/X with speaker wire. When I finally do, I'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 The most embarrassing kind of blind test was the one Mark Deneen did with the two (sonically) identical amps. One was really beefed up and listeners thought it had balls. That would make a great candid camera situation. I can relate to the idea of the DB test at Klipsch on speaker wire. I have never been able to tell any diff in speaker wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 "I did a true blind A/B test with a friend of mine when I bought my SACD player last year. On a whim, I bought a set of Monster 400 interconnects from work. The Sony had two pairs of stereo L/R outs. I plugged the pair of wires that came with the unit into the CD input on my Onkyo pre. Plugged the Monster 400's into the Tape Monitor input.".... are you talking about speaker wire or the connections between components? Cheap "between the component" interconnects and jacks are notorious for making crappy connections, that I can understand, I thought we were comparing "monster" #12 braided copper speaker wire installed competantly with various expensive custom made speaker connects utilizing a variety of purported mysterious superiorities. Most of the claims for one speaker wire over another are always about "brands" never about physical concepts. One brand of "silver" is not equivalent to another brands silver. I am suspicious when it is only about brands and not about physical realities or understandable engineering concepts. "My brand is better than your brand" is like my religion is better than your religion. You never really hear about "my science is better than your science" because the process is rational. K6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 ---------------- On 3/27/2004 11:29:04 PM Clipped and Shorn wrote: "I did a true blind A/B test with a friend of mine when I bought my SACD player last year. On a whim, I bought a set of Monster 400 interconnects from work. The Sony had two pairs of stereo L/R outs. I plugged the pair of wires that came with the unit into the CD input on my Onkyo pre. Plugged the Monster 400's into the Tape Monitor input.".... are you talking about speaker wire or the connections between components? Cheap "between the component" interconnects and jacks are notorious for making crappy connections, that I can understand, I thought we were comparing "monster" #12 braided copper speaker wire installed competantly with various expensive custom made speaker connects utilizing a variety of purported mysterious superiorities. Most of the claims for one speaker wire over another are always about "brands" never about physical concepts. One brand of "silver" is not equivalent to another brands silver. I am suspicious when it is only about brands and not about physical realities or understandable engineering concepts. "My brand is better than your brand" is like my religion is better than your religion. You never really hear about "my science is better than your science" because the process is rational. K6 ---------------- My point was merely that the speaker wire comparisons can never be truly accurate, but that interconnect comparisons can be accomplished quite easily, and that interconnect differences are very audible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Random Thoughts 1. I most likely would never pay over $ 250 for a pair of either speaker of patchcord. To date $ 100 per pair has beee the maximum. 2. For $ 100 it is a cheap tweek. 3. I like the notion of 2 objectives of wire. a. resist the influence of EMI b. do not harm the signal. 4. If you cannot make a major improvmewnt in your system for $ 500. Then a $ 500 pair is a sound option. 5. I dabble a little in wire. I avoid tube rolling. 6. Audio Quest, Straight Wire, Kimber and Radio Shack cables have been reasonable investments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 ---------------- On 3/28/2004 12:56:53 AM Audio Flynn wrote: Random Thoughts 1. I most likely would never pay over $ 250 for a pair of either speaker of patchcord. To date $ 100 per pair has beee the maximum. 2. For $ 100 it is a cheap tweek. 3. I like the notion of 2 objectives of wire. a. resist the influence of EMI b. do not harm the signal. 4. If you cannot make a major improvmewnt in your system for $ 500. Then a $ 500 pair is a sound option. 5. I dabble a little in wire. I avoid tube rolling. 6. Audio Quest, Straight Wire, Kimber and Radio Shack cables have been reasonable investments. ---------------- So let me ask you (as a dealer) - have you tried Ultralink or XLO? If so, what did you try and what are your thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan krajewski Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 >> Dude, I have 3 or 4 different varieties of coffee (not >> flavored) in my pantry right now, and I can tell the >> >> difference between each and every one of them. >> I am amazed this was even brought up as an applicable >> analogy, but (ironically) I am very picky about both >> audio and my coffee... I am Sorry. I should never be in a hurry when posting. There are people with golden palettes who can discern between coffee blends that 99 percent (or whatever percent) of the rest of us cannot. I was not talking about Folger's crystals, dude. There are wine tasters who can do the same with wine. Maybe its the same with wire. I don't know. Agreed? OK with this? Observations: 1) Bottom line is I just don't want to (once again) be part of this old adage: "A fool and his money are soon parted". 2) The truth is out there ..... somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 ---------------- On 3/27/2004 7:38:24 PM chuckears wrote: ssh, You are unfortunately seeing why I do not initiate posts in this particular forum about interconnects... there are too many members waiting to jump on anyone who dares to suggest that interconnects make a difference. Ignore them. I am confident in what I have perceived as the differences between the different cables I have used; I am comfortable with the money I have paid to get the cables and resulting sound I want. Those who beg to differ either cannot or have not heard the difference, and that's them. You and I and MANY other audiophiles know what we hear, and if you want to share this experience, I would recommend the Home Theater Spot Manufacturer Brand Wiring and Cables group, where the founder of the Spot (Paul Carleton) has banned any "cables are just cables" threads. As much as I agree with so many of the Klipsch forum members about the wonderful sound of Klipsch speakers, the cable question is one I try to avoid (except to agree with and defend cable-proclaimers), given the kind of response you are receiving now... ---------------- This is an interactive type forum. Nobody is flaming anybody. When you (or anybody) states that cables make a significant difference in your or anybodys system then you are open for a differing opinion. If someone else hadn't stated that not everyone thinks that high priced wires are the way to go I'd have jumped in. It is an opposing opinion and nothing else. Please keep it positive. I've learned a lot here, thanks to all, Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Griffin---You didn't do a double-blind test. You could be giving a tell. Plus the testee knew that a switch was being made, he knew at any given time it was one or the other. With DB testing you test for a difference not for preference. There might not even have been a switch made when one is indicated. Dunlavey used to amuse himself by telling audiophiles he'd switched speaker wires when he hadn't; it tickled him no end when the sucker audiophile when then go on at length how veils at been lifted, soundstage expanded, yada-yada. With speaker wires a single switch in the circuit is unlikely to degrade the sound so much that one couldn't tell a difference IF a difference really exists. Nor is it a given that switches degrade sound in the first place. And if that difference is so subtle that a single switch, amidst all the circuitry and switches of a hi-fi, hides that difference then what are we really talking about? We're certainly not talking about the huge differences some claim to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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