Informative email transaction between myself and a home theater installer. Good theory and info!

[m00n]

So as many of you know, I'm trying to sell my RS7s and replacing them with RC7s, I have them up on audiogon. I got an email from a home theater installer who installs Klipsch. I replied and then he re-replied. He had a LOT of very good information and theory and I thought I would share it with you all. I'm in my way associated with this guy, I'm not advertising for him. It's on the up, as I said, I just wanted to share his info.

If I had to make a bet, he and Artto gotta be best friends. The two of them have given very similar advice

His original email

----Original Message Follows----

TO: M00n

Saw your ad for the RS-7's and that you were selling them to replace with a set of RC-7's. Might I point out that the RC-7's used as surrounds may cause some problems? The RC-7 has a narrower dispersion than the RS-7's. While this may work fine if you have 1 or two seats, it may create problems with multiple seating positions in that you may get interference lobing. The RC-7 also has limited vertical dispersion (by design, to minimize floor and ceiling reflection problems) meaning the rear and side surrounds will have to be either at ear level or pointed down towards the listening positions. The RS-7's have a vastly different dispersion pattern, both horizontal and vertical, which is optimized for rear surround. If you were going to swap

out one set...I'd do the rears and not the sides...and this assumes you have the capability to point the rears downwards plus your seating isn't close to the rear wall. Also, I'd consider going to a pair of RB-7's (if you can fit them!) inst! ead which have a bigger dynamic range if you are concerned with multi-channel music and you want the closest match to the front mains which I am assuming are either RF-7's or RB-7's.

Regards,

Kevin Enderle

The Sound Broker

Authorized Klipsch Reseller

www.thesoundbroker.com

My Reply

-----Original Message-----

To: soundbroker@adelphia.net

Subject: re audiogon listing klipsch rs-7

Kevin

Thanks for the input. I guess a short explanation. I have 9 theater seats in my small theater. 3 rows of 3.

I found that having 1 set of surrounds was not sufficient for a good surround affect with so many seats. I then purchased another set of RS7s. This gave me 2 sets of side surrounds. This seemed to help however, it also flooded my room with too much spray. On top of that I have 2 RC7 rears. Still sounded good, but again too much spray not enough directionality.

So, now my venture is taking me to having 4 side surrounds but now running RC7s. They will stand as towers and be tilted toward the seating. I understand the crossover is a tapered array. The left driver being the low frequency driver. It will be on the bottom as it's stood on end.

So again, what I will now have is 4 RC7 side surrounds and 1 RC7 rear that will be laying flat as a center channel usually does.

A lot of it is trial and error, but i think this config just may work in my situation.

Visit my site.

http://www.m00n.net/m00ncinemas/index.aspx

And if you are wondering why I decided to get rid of the RS7s, you can follow this long but very interesting thread on the Klipsch Forums.

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=39766

Right now, I'm just trying to get my speakers all in place and figured out. Once I'm done with that, I'll continue my acoustic treatments, then onto decor.

Again, thanks for your input.

His Reply to my reply - He got my name wrong.. It's not Russ

Hi Russ,

You caught me before I left...so here is a long one to give you some ideas...

Checked out your website, nice system! But there are a few things that struck me...

RC-7's as towers...not sure if I'd do that. You are going to have a HUGE amount of floor and ceiling spray. You may end up with some severe lobing. Also, with the directed energy of the RC-7's placed opposite one another, you are going to get a

very significant amount of hotspot spray off the opposite walls, not to mention some significant cancellation ...which is what you have now, but at least it is relatively even with the polar dispersion of the RS-7's.

What is worse...the RC-7s will have to be pointed downwards as you pointed out...but honestly...to get them pointed down enough...they are gonna look FUNKY!

Also, the RC-7 being used in the rear may be causing your primary problem with surround fill. By design, the RC-7 has excellent horizontal dispersion but very limited vertical dispersion. This is ideal in a center channel placed at ear level to eliminate floor and ceiling bounce...but terrible for rear surround placement...particularly when it is not placed at ear level.

Remember, the ideal center will spray a wide swath of energy in a narrow vertical band...not the best thing with a rear monopole placed high! I'd be willing to bet the rear seat fill was the issue that forced a second set of sides. The high placement, close wall proximity of the rear seating row, and limited vertical dispersion of the RC-7's puts your rear and potentially even second row out of the rear channel energy area. The key is to get even rear surround fill at all the seating locations and also keep in mind that 99 times out of 100 with acoustics...less is more. Your system has a Lot more!

This is what I'd suggest trying. Under the philosophy that less is more and it is always easier to treat and predict acoustically when you have fewer sources with known dispersion characteristics...

I'd unhook the rearmost pair of RS-7's first. Those speakers have a very good polar response and they should fill in the front and rear row nicely. You have to consider exactly what the job of the sides is... to help with exactly the situation you are in fill in for multiple rows of seats where you end up getting cancellation lobing from a single pair of rear surrounds. If you go look at a commercial theater, you find that even with a HUGE wide space that is extremely long they often don't have any more sides than you do in your small narrow space.

I'd take that rearmost set of RS-7s and I'd substitute them in where the RC-7's for the rear are. The superior vertical dispersion of the RS-7's should help your fill your rear seats. You may end up having to move your side wall surrounds back just a tad to help fill in the rear outer seats.

I'd place one RC-7 as a center fill in the center down below the slanted section on the flat portion of the wall and put that at a VERY low level until you just barely start getting a center fill. Remember...less is more! Level wise for the surrounds...you want to set the rear surround levels as a whole. Starting with only the rear mains and then bringing up the sides only to fill in. Placement of the sides is also something that should remain unfixed until you get an idea of exactly where the holes in response are.

Now this one may hurt a bit...

I'd take the second RC-7 and try substituting it for the RF-7 in the middle. The triple RF-7 setup is ideal from a power standpoint...BUT it is ideal in a larger and wider room and you may actually be getting some cancellation effects with three RF-7's. Heck, it can't hurt to try, and you can always go back if it doesn't improve the imaging. Also there is a way to fill in the power range of the RC-7 with the two mains...keep reading!

Bass wise...the first thing I'd do is try unhooking one sub. Your placement of one atop the other is a very good thing...but one RSW-15 is enough to overload most spaces and a second may end up putting too much energy into the room. Consider a

Rane PE-17 single band parametric EQ to help tune the bass in once you have placed the traps that are inevitable...it can be the final tuning step on the bottom end and is inexpensive at $399 plus some RCA to XLR adapters.

One thing that is a possibility is to dedicate the second sub to the RC-7 center channel. This has some advantages...you can use a smaller center which causes less secondary reflection problems and less potential lobing at the lower midbass frequencies. But...it allows you to run a full range signal to the center so you do not have any loss of dynamics between the three. Using three ideal speakers is great in theory...ONLY if you have a large space with even response...10' wide doesn't qualify! Keep the second sub where it is placement wise.

Acoustics wise...it is easier to tune an overall system in a space which has had the first and secondary primary reflection zones treated. I'd be willing to bet that the reason you are getting a wider, most spacious soundstage in the rear is that your front center seats are the exact focal point for first zone reflection and when you move further back you are getting out of the "smear zone" (which also has more directed high frequency energy).

The problems are less heinous with the directed horns on the Klipsch...but they are still there! I'd start by getting the primary and secondary reflection zones treated before I did anything else. Your main speakers and your center speaker positions likely won't change position so treating those spots will actually make it easier to treat your rear surround issues and should even out your response to all the seating rows.

On the rear wall...I strongly suspect you will benefit from a flutterblock system but I'd reserve judgment until the first and second primaries are treated.

I've seen people on the Klipsch forum talk about putting up blankets or curtains, but the problem with those is that they are not wide bandwidth absorbers. You want some treatment that is wide bandwidth. I sell foam based systems that are inexpensive and extremely effective.

Regards,

Kevin Enderle

The Sound Broker

Oxnard CA USA

805-985-5147 9AM-6PM PACIFIC TIME

http://www.thesoundbroker.com

"The Sound Broker" is a federally registered trademark.

All rights reserved.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I would agree with some of his points.

(Mainly too many speakers might be the culprit?) E.G. Too many surrounds or subs?

I also dissagree with some things too. In any system, take the left, center, and right speakers, assuming eveything in them is the same... (Some refer to this as timbre or "matching" they will kick butt a company designed center. We spend all this money to get a smaller footprint, so most people can put the center speaker in a cabinet. BS! For the ultimate sound, you have to have a match all accross. If THX means nothing.. And to many people it is a scam...LOL At least THX REQUIRES this for smooth sound/ L,C,R accross the screen.)Other than Q man 99.99999% can never afford, let alone build a center cabinet so the K horn will fit or work.

I am sure if Paul was around today, he might wrestle with it too. Afterall, the Belle or La Scala is not a K horn.. Especially on the bottom end a Cornwall will "Eat their lunch" at 38 Htz vs 50-53 on the Belle or the La Scala. They are all great speakers but just "relatives" AND how do you get the bass to go forward too as a center without doing what Q man did??

But you know it, I know it, so does everyone else... Set up propper, A K horn HAS to be the best center channel in between a pair of K horns. Thats why everyone that has a Cornwall three across or anything three across, (like your RS7's) LOVES it. Moon you have a terrific system, keep the three fronts you have, and your fantastic sub the Klipsch RSW 15 too, for incredible lows as well.

I have heard of too much bass causing problems in a small room. (It just overpowers everything. long waves fighting to get out..LOL) Think of some kid in HS car with "monster 12",15" and 18" subs.. Boom boom boom How can he even think is beyond me as his whole car rattles next to me at a stoplight? I know in my heart it HAS to just sound like Sh*t.LOL) I might try just the one RSW 15 and set it at a lower x over point. Afterall, you have great full range L,C,R speakers again like at say 65Htz on down (or lower) so what you get is true "thump" factor for the sub.

One thing I might also try is your current RS7's... call me crazy but instead of hanging them horizontal...as they are made for...Try The RS7's verticle.. This might solve your too much sound going left and right situation...and since it is angled...give you a sound source directly to you seated...and another off the ceiling...not sure how to measure it..but it might give your ears with whatever delay it is to bounce off the ceiling then to you...just enough of a delay to make your room seem huge!

Audio is as much a science as an art. We can design speakers on paper or in the lab that are supposed to sound terrific, only to find them dull and not at all lifelike. Your room, as stated on here so many times...or a bedroom, or family room, depending on what is in it and on the walls has unfortunantly more to do with the end sound than most would want to look at. Sometimes you just get lucky too.

Try the RS7's vertical...I have a "hunch" you might really like it this way..

Roger.

[m00n]

I may try to do that. Not sure how you can mount a RS7 like that though. Something tells me however, that RS7s flipped on end would not sound ideal. I'm trying to picture this... You have a horn firing down towards the seating position, while you have a woofer firing across the top of your head. I'd entertain that idea just to see how it sounds. Again, if I could figure out an easy want to secure then without having to modify the speaker in any way before selling them.

on top of that, the RC7s are already purchased and on the way. Get them sometime this week.

[TheSoundBroker]

----------------

I also dissagree with some things too. In any system, take the left, center, and right speakers, assuming eveything in them is the same... (Some refer to this as timbre or "matching" they will kick butt a company designed center. We spend all this money to get a smaller footprint, so most people can put the center speaker in a cabinet. BS! For the ultimate sound, you have to have a match all accross. If THX means nothing.. And to many people it is a scam...LOL At least THX REQUIRES this for smooth sound/ L,C,R accross the screen.)Other than Q man 99.99999% can never afford, let alone build a center cabinet so the K horn will fit or work.

----------------

In most circumstances, using an identical center channel, tonally and power response wise, is an ideal, no question. However, there are circumstances where a smaller center with an ideally matched mid/top tonal balance can work to your advantage. The RC-7, because it uses a truly identical horn, is one of those speakers. One area I've found this to be especially true is in narrow rooms. Primarily because an identical, closely spaced center does cause comb filter effects and a closely spaced first and second primary reflection point all at identical energy levels which can create a very defined null in the middle (exactly what is happening in this room near as I can tell). This can be alleviated somewhat by acoustically treating both primary first reflection points...but getting the upper midbass drivers at a different physical and slightly different tonal level than the others can also pay benefits. The balance is between the tonal problems caused by comb filtering from three closely spaced centers, vs a slightly different tonal balance shift between the three and only experimentation will tell. The power issue is why I suggested dedicating the RSW-12 to the center.

You will note that the ITU-R standard for film soundtrack production and the THX standard assumes one thing...a WIDE room (with a 110 degree offset spacing for the *rears* in the ITU-R layout, you have no choice!). There is no way RICK (sorry 'bout getting the name wrong guy!) will be able to meet the standard in a 10' wide x 23" long room and thus some compromises are gonna have to be tried. Having a fairly wide room also allows you to space out and control the primary and secondary nodes fairly easily...but a narrow room is going to give you much bigger problems.

You'll note that this was a suggestion to try! Doesn't aways work out...but it has solved several problems we've had in installs. We sell a fair amount of PMC Reference...the speakers that a pretty large percentage of the best film houses are using in multi-channel production, and they found a horizontal layout to be best with their center...which is identical, but uses a single woofer horizontal layout (check my website to see a picture of an IB-2C and you'll understand). It gives the center an identical power and tonal output...but a slightly different polar response pattern which is what we are looking for here. I'd love to see Rick borrow an RB-75 bookshelf speaker from his dealer to try as a center as well...probably a bit closer in power response to the RF-7's but also with a different polar response in the midbass.

Surround wise...I still suspect the layout I suggested may end up giving Rick better rear field coverage. I still suspect the null zone from the rears is what caused the ititial problem he had (a big hole) with one set of RS-7's on the sides only...adding a second set put too much energy in back and created too many nulls and too much splash. Since the *goal* is to get the best coverage for every seat in back while still causing the least number of acoustical problems (or at least the smallest number of predictable ones!), I'd still like to see him try the RS-7's on the back wall to see if his coverage evens out for his back row, then position the sides to even out the energy response where there are some nulls. The best thing is...he has all the speakers there he needs to try all of this out!

Kevin

The Sound Broker

[T2K]

Where has this guy been? There has been so much BS spread around this forum for so long (read it e'nuff, you begin to believe it) that you still get incorrect and unrelated opinions from some. Listen to this guy Russ , save your time and money.

Keith

Oh yeah, tell your wife I was going to respond to her e-mail but my computer is infected. I'll talk to her in a few days after I get the Rx.

[m00n]

Kevin, It's not that I ever felt as though I had anything wrong accousticly, my issue was that I don't like surrounds that are

A) in front of me

in back of me.

I like my sourrounds to be on the sides of me. With that said, I do like having rears as well. I'm aware that having multiple surrounds is going to cause some problems. However, as I have mentioned in the past, I plan on accepting some of that.

Oh... just read your email... No i have not treated the first and second reflection points yet. I have been working with someone who shares your views on my room. He too has been beating me over the head with the "NO DUPLICATE SURROUNDS" stick. You two should get along very well.

I do plan on doing more accoustic treatments. I want to work on first and second reflection points, however, artto was having me address bass issues first.

He and I have been working on fixing excessive low frequeny issues. I have built some bass traps in the back of my room. Go to the Architectural area, there are two posts that will shed a lot of light on my situation. That is if you have the time.

[m00n]

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On 4/11/2004 4:11:37 PM T2K wrote:

Where has this guy been? There has been so much BS spread around this forum for so long (read it e'nuff, you begin to believe it) that you still get incorrect and unrelated opinions from some. Listen to this guy Russ

, save your time and money.

Keith

Oh yeah, tell your wife I was going to respond to her e-mail but my computer is infected. I'll talk to her in a few days after I get the Rx.

----------------

Keith, your just happy to find somene who will dissagree with HornEd along with you.

[j-malotky]

----------------

On 4/11/2004 4:11:37 PM T2K wrote:

Where has this guy been? There has been so much BS spread around this forum for so long (read it e'nuff, you begin to believe it) that you still get incorrect and unrelated opinions from some. Listen to this guy Russ

, save your time and money.

----------------

Did you even read what has been written???? Our good buddy M00N's main problem is his 10' wide room, with a depth almost 2.5 times as deep. That is a huge problem to overcome. I think Kevin is giving some great advice.

As for the opionions go, I find a lot of us talking about a lot of different classes for sound systems in this HT Forum. There is also a lot of knowledgeable people here ho give a lot of usefull and free information. Although I do not agree with some of the posts here, I would not call them BS.

In my case, For example, I can't do any justice comparing my system that is comprised of 7 full range Heritage monopole speakers in a large HT room specifically designed to maximize the sound of the BIG Heritage speakers, to somebodys all Synergy system in there L shaped living room.

JM

[j-malotky]

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On 4/11/2004 3:50:07 PM SoundBroker wrote:

In most circumstances, using an identical center channel, tonally and power response wise, is an ideal, no question.

----------------

I do not see him disagreeing with HornED?

JM

[m00n]

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On 4/11/2004 6:21:36 PM j-malotky wrote:

----------------

On 4/11/2004 3:50:07 PM SoundBroker wrote:

In most circumstances, using an identical center channel, tonally and power response wise, is an ideal, no question.

----------------

I do not see him disagreeing with HornED?

JM

----------------

Your probably right about that one, what I was referring to was Keith is of the opinion that RS7s would be the better solution whereas Horn prefers direction speakers over sprayers. Thats all... Don't beat me.

[ygmn]

All I can say is interesting read......

Time to play some more huh m00n?

[m00n]

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On 4/11/2004 7:12:07 PM ygmn wrote:

All I can say is interesting read......

Time to play some more huh m00n?

----------------

Why do I get this impression there is an evil giggle to that post.

Oh and to answer your question... I dunno. I've tried all sorts of configurations already. I've already ordered the RC7s. I'm not thinking at this point I'm chaning gears...

[TauRus]

Moon, great to hear you have set aside all doubts and are already implementing the new set up.

As I was reading this very imteresting thread, a crazy/silly/(your definition) idea came to my mind. I have never heard anyone suggest it, nor do I know anyone to try it. Just for the sake of theoretical discussion, Moon, what do you think would happen if you would mount two RS7s back to back in the center just above the seating places. So that the RS7s would be actually facing the side walls? Given the narrow long room, what kind of surround effect that might have created? :)

OK, ok, looks like I am smoking dope here .........

So much for brainstorming for this weekend.

[Deang]

Rick,

If you are using the RC-7s in an upright position, you will HAVE to twirl the horns. I mentioned this before in another thread, but can't remember which one. You'll need a 20 sized torx bit.

[m00n]

Yeah I have one.. I remember you telling me, I then replied back and asked what was the reasoning behind this. Is this because of the horn dispersion pattern? That being the case, I was thinking I may be better off leaving it as is considering I'm going to be running multi surrounds.

Not to mention this would give me a better coverage across one single row... Right?

[Deang]

Yes, if you look into the lenses of one of your RF-7s, you will see what I'm talking about. Notice the way the throat is shaped -- it is what controls the dispersion pattern.

How far apart will they be from each other?

[m00n]

i'd have to go measure but off the top of my head I'm thinking some 3 feet center to center

*edit*

4' center to center

[T2K]

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On 4/11/2004 5:47:08 PM m00n wrote:

----------------

On 4/11/2004 4:11:37 PM T2K wrote:

Where has this guy been? There has been so much BS spread around this forum for so long (read it e'nuff, you begin to believe it) that you still get incorrect and unrelated opinions from some. Listen to this guy Russ

, save your time and money.

Keith

Oh yeah, tell your wife I was going to respond to her e-mail but my computer is infected. I'll talk to her in a few days after I get the Rx.

----------------

Keith, your just happy to find somene who will dissagree with HornEd along with you.

----------------

Hey Rick. Hope the kids had a happy Easter.

I've tried to tell you most of this over time. The problem is that one certain person (ED) will not allow anyone to express their own opinion here without inflicking his misguided BS upon the thread. And you fell for it. So have many others here.

I have no ego to try to inflate, and I'm certainly not impressed by speakers, not even 7 Hermitage boxes. Don't worry, I'm not going to start talking about what boxes I have now, like that's relevant. I do like to listen to good music on occasion. Whatever that requires is all that I require.

The RF-7 center was a waste of good money. The RC-7, in YOUR room (that is what we're talking about isn't it) probably sounds better for dialogue than the monster. Set it small. Use one of the subs for center, we talked about that, also about using a rear sub. We talked just recently about the RS-7's being 'made' for your room. My words.

I'm tired of talking about it. The desired result will take some effort on your part. Sounds like you have found someone that actually knows what he's talking about in Kevin. Good luck to you pal.

Keith

[m00n]

Wow... Keith.. I agree, you have given me the same direction that he has. I did not post his information for the purpose of saying a new person has shown me the light where you have failed, I'm sorry if you took it that way.

Basically I posted it for two reasons. One, there simply is some very good information and advice, not only that but it does align up with a lot of other peoples thoughts on this board. Two, I wanted others to have a chance to see/read it. A do as others suggest, not as I do.

Keith, I realize that my approach is unorthadox, it's not the suggested way, it very well may not the best way. However my theater is my is my lab so to speak. My area to play, learn, experiment and try different things. My opportunity to figure out what works well with each other what does not. How to place speakers, how to accousticly treat my room. My ability to learn the in's and out's of audio and home theater.

You guys have years and years of knowledge on me and I see many of you giving me your best advice and I know it's because you want to share your experiances with me, to teach me from your experiments and discoveries. I highly value every single bit of information that is given to me. I realize that it may frusterate some of you to see me make some of the decisions I do. I don't know what to say. It's not like I'm blowing off the advice, or having the mindset that everyone is full of sh1t and I'm right, thats not the case at all..... Again, I highly appreciate everyones input, but I can't help but feel that it's ok for me to experiment as well and receive advice.

And as far as the horn ed remark... Keith, it was just a joke, I was just having fun with you. Not against you just with you. Sorry if you took offence.

Damn... I posted this for other peoples benifits and sadly all I've done is piss off and alienate someone who I feel to be a great friend of mine. As a matter of fact Keith, do you know who the very first person was to reply to my first post on this board? I do. I was you.. I still remember. Back when you had those mick jagger looking lips. Eh.. Don't listen to me. I'm just bummed that I feel as though I've lost a friend.

[Deang]

"I do like to listen to good music on occasion. Whatever that requires is all that I require."

LOL, that line is an instant classic. Pretty profound actually.

I don't think Rick wasted his money on that RF-7 center -- he has a perfect match across the front. I used two RF-7s alone for 2-channel HT -- and I sure as hell never had a problem making out the dialogue. I do like the idea of running a sub off of that center -- that's a good idea.

Don't miss my original point.: Rick has increased the sensitivity of his entire speaker system -- and that means lower distortion at reference levels.

Four feet apart huh? I would definitely twirl the lenses, and after you get everything dialed in -- you might want to try reverse phasing one set of the RC-7s. This will eleviate any out of phase wave cancellations you might have going on. It's an old Jedi Mind Trick -- under some conditions -- it works beautifully. With four feet though, you might be O.K.