Some more High-End Garbage

[artto]

This guy (the author) probably uses a Blose WaveRadio for his main reference system.

http://www.forbes.com/2004/04/21/cx_ah_0421tentech.html

What a maroon!

[3dzapper]

Right on artto! For three grand he could get a set of Lascalas and really hear Duke's band's instruments like he was alive in Newport in 1956. Kids!

Rick

[skonopa]

----------------

On 4/21/2004 6:18:39 PM artto wrote:

This guy (the author) probably uses a Blose WaveRadio for his main reference system.

http://www.forbes.com/2004/04/21/cx_ah_0421tentech.html

What a maroon!

----------------

I just wonder how much better those things actually sound compared to something a bit more approachable such as the Sennheiser HD-600's, which can be found for less than 1/10th of the price of those things, but are regarded by many to be an excllent pair of headphones.

I bet they don't sound much better to be worth the difference in price.

[arj]

There are a group of people who excusively listen only to headphones saying that gives them the "Purest" form of music.

The idea has some merit as that is one way of eliminating Room acoustics/reflections which play a big factor in what we hear..

Personally do not like the idea of being tied down with a wire round my neck tho

as in speakers we hae the Value for money range and then the Sheer Opulance range...I guess these fall into the latter category..

[skonopa]

----------------

On 4/22/2004 1:01:07 AM arj wrote:

Personally do not like the idea of being tied down with a wire round my neck tho

----------------

Same here on a normal basis, but unfortunatly, at work, I am stuck sharing an office with somebody that does not always appreciates my taste in music. So if I want to listen to music at work on days other than when he is not there, then the only way is through a pair of cans. I currently have a pair of Sony headphones that actually sound pretty decent. I am seriously considering trying on a pair of the Sennheisers or Grados, though. Those things in the above linked article are way out of my range, though.

[Ray Garrison]

artto,

I don't follow what you had a problem with. If you listen to headphones a lot, and you think a $3,000 pair of phones is really, really good, what's the problem? Sennheiser made a pair that retailed for $15,000 a couple years ago (the Orpheus), and Stax has always had some at the higher end of the price scale. Companies like Headroom make dedicated headphone amps that run into thousands of dollars. A lot of folks use Cary 300 series amps as headphone amps. Those are also $3K +.

Here at home, I am limited to headphone listening after my 4 year old son goes to bed (house is too small to be able to play stereo without keeping him up.) I use a pair of Sennheiser HD600s because they were the best I could afford. I think they sound great. But, if I could afford a better set (one of the Headroom modded Sennheiser 650's with the Blockhead amp, say) I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[Colin]

beware any writer using the royal "we!"

I have the old style Stax electret headphones, which I love with my Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour monoblock tube amplifiers it is like miniature electrostatics right next to ear, only without the tremendous horsepower requirements of the full size loudspeakers. Quite delicious. However my onw crude SPL measurements show the Stax have slight but even upward tilt through-out the entire frequency response, giving them a bright, clear sound. I heard the Senn HD580 and was quite impressed with their over the ear comfort and rich, full sound for the money. I did hear what all the fuss is about.

[artto]

----------------

On 4/22/2004 7:36:00 AM Ray Garrison wrote:

artto,

I don't follow what you had a problem with. If you listen to headphones a lot, and you think a $3,000 pair of phones is really, really good, what's the problem? Sennheiser made a pair that retailed for $15,000 a couple years ago (the Orpheus), and Stax has always had some at the higher end of the price scale. Companies like Headroom make dedicated headphone amps that run into thousands of dollars. A lot of folks use Cary 300 series amps as headphone amps. Those are also $3K +.

Here at home, I am limited to headphone listening after my 4 year old son goes to bed (house is too small to be able to play stereo without keeping him up.) I use a pair of Sennheiser HD600s because they were the best I could afford. I think they sound great. But, if I could afford a better set (one of the Headroom modded Sennheiser 650's with the Blockhead amp, say) I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

----------------

Read the article Ray. They're making "only 999" of these. This, & the $3000 price tag are obviously just a marketing gimmick relying on "the greater fool theory".

Admittedly, I'm not a big headphone fan. Probably the biggest thing missing is the impact of actually feeling the sound.

I record & produce recordings several times a year for local chorales/ensembles. These are almost always recorded live-in-concert. Headphones are a must for monitoring. I use AKG Studio K270. At one pre-concert rehearsal I handed the phones over to my wife for a listen. She puts them on, & a few seconds later, takes them off & hands them back. I ask, "So, what do you think?" She says "I don't hear anything." I put them on, turn the gain up & down to make sure they're still getting a signal. Everything is fine. I hand them back to her & she puts them back on. I turn the gain off. You should have seen the look of astonishment on her face! Now, when you can put the phones on your head & take them off with the actual live performance taking place right in front of you & you can't tell the difference, I'd say that's about as good as it gets. And these headphones, while not cheap, certainly cost nowhere near $3K. If you what something that 'sounds better than live', that's your prerogative. But it has absolutely nothing to do with hi-fidelity (accuracy of sound REproduction).

"A fool & his money are quickly parted"

[gerbache]

----------------

On 4/22/2004 7:53:33 AM mdeneen wrote:

I agree with Ray on the economics, and I think there is merit to the headphone sans room acoustics arguement, although I would never want to do all my listening through 'phones.

Ray, do your Sennheisers suffer the "constantly intermittant connnectors" problem? Perhaps it's me, but every pair of Senns' I have owned, within weeks the tiny connectors go intermittant. I think their cable is the WORST design I have ever seen. Those connectors are crap for one, and the "cowboy hat" style dual-cord under your neck has got to be the most uncomfortable style possible. Great 'phones, somewhat cheesy design, IMO.

mdeneen

----------------

Don't they use that style of wire because you're supposed to be able to change them? My dad has a set, and I vaguely remember seeing something in the book that came with them that you can buy other wires to "upgrade" the ones that are built in. Not that this makes the dual-cord style any more comfortable, but at least it gives an opportunity to get rid of a staticy set. I don't think dad's are staticy, but then I haven't heard his in forever now.

I suppose if you're paying the money that Sennheiser costs, you ought to be able to expect a set that doesn't need to have new wires added on, though. Anybody have any other favorite headphones? I might be in the market for some in the near future, but Sennheiser are the only top notch ones that I'm familiar with (and can possibly afford).

[sunnysal]

I have had two pairs of senn and will never buy another! why? well besides the problems with cables (yes ALL senns have that problem, bloody ridiculous I say) I find the sound of grados to please me more and settled on a pair of SR-225s, great phones and no problems with cables, ever! I also have found the shure E2C in-the-ear phones to sound wonderful for less than $100! as for $3,000 headphones...If I spent more time listening to headphones instead of to my living room system I would consider spending big bucks on headphones. after all they are transducers for listening to music, if you spend $X on speakers you should be willing to spend the same on headphones...IMHO...YMMV...regards, tony

last note: I would never claim anyone has spent too much on components; because this pricing and value issue is PURELY subjective.

[artto]

----------------

On 4/22/2004 12:04:50 PM sunnysal wrote:

if you spend $X on speakers you should be willing to spend the same on headphones...IMHO...YMMV...regards, tony

last note: I would never claim anyone has spent too much on components; because this pricing and value issue is PURELY subjective.

----------------

I dread the day I may have to resign myself to listening to music through headphones as a primary 'transducer' source.

If its so "PURELY subjective", what's the problem with claiming that the pricing/value issue is way out of line? For $15K (as in the Senn's mentioned above) you can build a room (or improve an existing one) that will produce far better results with improvements beyond your wildest dreams. Go Ahead. Spend it on some stupid headphones.

[Ray Garrison]

artto -

The point is, some people prefer listening through headphones. Either because they like the way headphones sound more than they like the way speakers sound (and the two are completely different experiences... and which you prefer is totally subjective) or because they simply can't play music "out loud" - like in my case, I can't play the stereo late at night, which is when I do most of my listening these days. I'd like to have the best sound I can, and if the choice is between speakers (ANY speakers) playing veery, veery qwietwy, or headphones, I choose the phones.

sunnysal et al,

I have owned HD414, HD424 and HD600 phones (along with a variety of AKG, Koss, Signet, STAX and others) and I have never had any kind of problem of any sort whatsoever with the Sennheiser cables. On any of the models I've owned. I guess I'm not very hard on headphones - I just put 'em on, sit down and listen - but that's been my experience.

[D-MAN]

Headphones have their points, as long as you don't want to "feel" the music itself.

However, felling the music is the main enjoyment that I get from loudspeakers - the "feel" and impact of the music on your senses is an aspect that headphones, no matter the quality, can't produce effectively IMO.

DM

[sunnysal]

re: headphones in general, as stated elsewhere; some of us do not have the ability to dedicate a room to listening, many of us must settle for a less than perfect (sonically) multiuse room, not to mention that my listening habits and tastes do not always match the mood, timing or tastes of the others living in my house, headphones are a valid solution for those of us who cannot disappear into a soundproof santuary to listen. I get great sound from my headphones and enjoy immensely my listening sessions with them, I also enjoy my living room system, each has its use.

re: senns, I am glad you have not had problems Ray, there is no doubt they make nice sounding cans but...many, many people (besides little´ole´me) have reported problems with those darn cable connectors and when people ask I feel I should mention that little potential thorny problem.

re: subjectivity, you prove my point..."stupid" ? ! in your opinion, in your world, etc.. $15,000 to one person has a different weight then to another, why not let us enjoy our stuff?

best regards from sunny el salvador, tony

[Gilbert]

Ooooohh!..... Aaaaaahhhh!

That's it, I'm selling all my Heritage for a pair of headphones.

NOT!

[artto]

----------------

On 4/22/2004 8:48:46 PM sunnysal wrote:

re: subjectivity, you prove my point..."stupid" ? ! in your opinion, in your world, etc.. $15,000 to one person has a different weight then to another, why not let us enjoy our stuff?

best regards from sunny el salvador, tony

----------------

If buring a $15K hole in one's pocket (or even $3K) for headphones turns you on, go ahead, be my guest. Enjoy it! But don't expect me to not say your stupid. The fact of the matter is (as I pointed out above in an 'accidental' blind test) you don't have to spend anywhere near that much for extremely high quality, high accuracy headphones, ones that are used for recording & mastering live sounds/music. And so now someone (anyone) is going to tell me that YOUR OPINION referenced to YOUR PERSONAL 'TASTES' are the real reference? Who the hell might you be? God?

It may be my opinion, but my opinion is a qualified opinion. And there is a difference. And it has been tested against the real thing. Not just what "sounds nice & pretty" "to me" like most 'audiphiles'.

You guys who keep trying to make the subjective argument a valid one are way out over the line here. It's valid for you & only you. Once you cross that "I think its better, so therefore it is better" crap you've baically qualified yourself as a certified egomaniac who's ego is their only point of reference. Its a nice safe place, isn't it! No one can challange you. No can defeat you. No one can prove you wrong.

Hell, I remember having a 79' Firebird with a Pioneer Supertuner/Cassette & a 6x9 in the front dash & rear deck. That sure 'sounded better' (on a lot of things). So did the new 8 track in our soundman/roadie's 59 Oldsmobile the first time heard Led Zepplin. I was in absolute awe. Yep, it sounded better than 'live'. Similar story with the 68' Zenith console I bought in H.S. "It was the best you could get!" I would argue. Now, you all know how STUPID I WAS. I was STUPID, because at the time, my only reference was "pleasing my own ear". And all of here know that far superior equipment was avaiable 15 years previous to this. Now, once again, if you want to pay McLaren prices for a Ford Focus, like I said, "it's your prerogative". I guess "ignorance is bliss" applies here very strongly.

One member on this thread previously made some statements to the like of "I make a ridiculously high income & can afford whatever I please & chose Klipschorns." This same person has previously stated that they think there is something in "putting together a group of components that synergize in a way that can overcome each's shortcomings in a way where room problems are not such a concern." Some more ignorance emminating from the ego. Speaking about something they've never experimented with, or experienced, yet they know! (Thats what I mean by an 'unqualified opinion') And it shows complete disregard & understanding of what's really involved, of the whole picture. Yet this same person can't spend enough money to have a dedicated acoustically tuned room? One that won't disturb friends or family at any time of day or night? I thought you could afford whatever you please? I certainly can't afford whatever I please. But I did it. And from what I can tell, I don't make anywhere near as much money. It's called priorities.

Better start reading those 300+ pages of 'Audio Papers' I sent you last year.

[sunnysal]

calm down.

first; I AM GOD so watch what you say to me, or I may turn you into a pillar of salt.

second; I have read everything sent to me (and a good bit more), headphones are FAVORED by MANY qualified, educated people.

third; no one has knocked your favorite subject, room optimization. you are free to spend all the time, money and effort you wish on that and can expect no one to call you "stupid".

third and a half; I tend to think it is stupid to call others stupid, IMHO.

fourth; MANY argue that any component over $2,500 (put any number there you want) is a "stupid" investment...others swear there are small gains to be had all the way up the scale...that is why pseakers run from $500-150,000/pair. to each his own I say.

five; I am happy with my $250 grados, I hope I am not stupid. I am happy with my ridiculously over-priced klipschorns (some would say they cost too much), I hope I am not stupid. I am happy with my bimmer, I hope I am not stupid. let´s stop trying to prove our way is the only way and calling others stupid, how about that?

wamr regards, tony

[Colin]

Gad, calling each other names should never be allowed in any adult forum, here or in Baghdad! Arguing about headphones versus loudspeakers is like fighting over motorcycles versus cars. Come on, every body knows that we should all own both. Arguing over expensive headphones versus inexpensive big ole horns is just making things worse. Fact of the matter us that a CD player direct to a pair of headphone is a very low cost way to get very good quality music for parents, students, offices and bedrooms.

Hard to believe that there are people who want to pay the most in order to ensure that they have the best, without doing any research about quality (just look at the repair records of luxury cars, especially Scandinavian ones - and you will see that this is true).

[sheltie dave]

Colin, calling people names is allowed in Baghdad. Actually, it is encouraged, because it eliminates the question of whether the person is friendly or not. There would be many more civil conversations around the forum if warring parties were forced to talk to each other while packing heat and playing poker

There comes a point where ridiculous conspicuous consumption comes into play. The part I am dissapointed with involves having a normal writer tasked with reviewing a c.c. piece of audio gear. We heard nothing about bloom, presence, or thunderous bass and overwhelming majesty in this paid "ad." The reviewer actually hit the nail on the head, noting this item will sell out BECAUSE of its exclusive price tag

[artto]

----------------

On 4/23/2004 11:26:19 AM sunnysal wrote:

calm down.

first; I AM GOD so watch what you say to me, or I may turn you into a pillar of salt.

second; I have read everything sent to me (and a good bit more), headphones are FAVORED by MANY qualified, educated people.

third; no one has knocked your favorite subject, room optimization. you are free to spend all the time, money and effort you wish on that and can expect no one to call you "stupid".

third and a half; I tend to think it is stupid to call others stupid, IMHO.

fourth; MANY argue that any component over $2,500 (put any number there you want) is a "stupid" investment...others swear there are small gains to be had all the way up the scale...that is why pseakers run from $500-150,000/pair. to each his own I say.

five; I am happy with my $250 grados, I hope I am not stupid. I am happy with my ridiculously over-priced klipschorns (some would say they cost too much), I hope I am not stupid. I am happy with my bimmer, I hope I am not stupid. let´s stop trying to prove our way is the only way and calling others stupid, how about that?

wamr regards, tony

----------------

Your wasting your time telling me to "calm down". (Oh how I hate that) (GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR)

First off, I didn't, and as you can see from my posts, call anyone specifically, stupid. But now I will. Because you're not even smart enough (in other words stupid) to figure that out.

Second, your are not God, because I am.

Third I started this thread. The aforementioned article was referred to me in a Forbes news 'technology' email that I subscribe to (not exactly what you would call a 'qualified' audio journal, albeit, its reprinted, in part, from something in that area). It's obviously intended for "upscale wall street" types who have plenty of money to blow on useless things with no more than 'bragging rights' as to how much they spent. It's kind of like bragging about how much gas your vehicle uses.

Yes, you're correct. "Headphones are FAVORED by MANY qualified, educated people." I am one of them. I favor them, in fact require them for certain things. The point still stands. $200 will get you all the accuracy you can get (or need) for music audio type applications. Anything else is just 'playing with yourself' to please your own senses. I don't have a problem with that. But that doesn't mean I'm going refrain from exclaiming my opinion(s) just because it might offend someone.

Off the subject, as an example, I eventually had to tell a friend of mine, outright, to stop saying the things he was saying. He just didn't seen to get it until I said "Chuck, you're being extremely stupid!" "The market (stocks) doesn't work like that. And anyone who's been down this road is laughing at you behind your back when you say things like that." "I'm telling you this as a friend, man!" "Don't talk like that! It doesn't become you & I know you're smarter than that." Near the height of the stock market bubble, he had taken $2500 & placed it on no less than 70 different stocks, all under $5 each. After 2-3 months of 'easy' gains, he figured (insisted, actually) that he was going to be "a millionaire in 18 months." Kept telling me "Art, do the math, do the math!" I don't consider him to be a stupid guy. He's actually very insightful sometimes & often surprises you with plenty of "Facts", especially as it may apply to technology & politics.

There is a thread on the Forum right now "why are people so ignorant". I didn't bother posting to it because it was primarily about all the Klipsch bashers over at Audio Asylum. But the fact of the matter, (and I'll go on permanent record right here & now for saying this, too bad if anyone can't deal with this).......................

IS THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALL IGNORANT. Very Very Ignorant. Every single one of us is virtually, completely, ignorant about almost everything. Sure, we all have our own little feeble areas of 'knowledge' (& I use that term VERY loosely) & experience. But the fact remains that even collectively, we know very little about ourselves or the world we live in.

So the next time you think my ego is out-of-line, or you think that 'speaking out' in any form as the other party feels is appropriate, is non-adult like, please keep that in mind. I for one, am going tired of new wave of proposed censorship, putting up with someone else's definition of decency & morality standards, & the consequential intolerance.