Klipschorns, old vs. new

[Travis In Austin]

There are some K-Horns for sale on ebay right now described as follows:

"Serial # 1504 and #1056, signed labels on the back of speakers (see photos). Only a very few nicks in the cabinetry. Grills are near perfect, front and side. Number 1504 appears to be in original condition. Number 1056 appears to have some refinishing on the cabinetry. All coils and wiring have been inspected and replaced where necessary. They are hooked up and sound magnificent. They look incredible and are a rare find. These speakers are very heavy and would be expensive to ship. That is possible if buyer is willing to pay all expenses incurred. Please email me if you have any questions at Ccarr0326@aol.com. I will answer all that I can. They belonged to my late husband and he cherished them. I do not have a room in my current home to accommodate them as they should be used. They can be seen and heard in AUSTIN, TEXAS."

I live in Austin so there is not going to be easier way then this to buy some used K-Horns. I have seen some discussion in this forum about the sound of the new K-Horns vs. a nice vintage set. Putting aside for the moment the price difference, I was wondering if someone could comment on the vintage vs. brand new issue.

Secondly, I would appreciate anyone's comments on what they thought about the speakers for sale.

Thanks in advance

[khorn58]

I took a look at the early khorn for sale on ebay.

They have been updated which to me kills there vintasge sound.

They have modern midhorns not the early wood/glass midhorns.

This tell me that all the speakers are probly new.

The cabnet and cross over are orig.

I think the early crossover is great with the orig mid horn but not well matched for the late mid horn it has.

I think the price is high for messed with early khorn for that price i would want orig speakers.

[consistent]

New v Used can sometimes be a decision that you will only find the answer in comapring side by side. Take on board what the 'experts' say but in the end it comes down to two things, your budget and your emotional state. My emotional state said buy new but my budget said buy used. I also beleive that some subltle improvements have been made, so what the heck, I went new! The only problem is that I have to wait 2 months!

[HDBRbuilder]

What makes a K-horn a K-horn is PRIMARILY its bass bin construction, since everything else in its design is "changeable" (is that a word?). The basic DESIGN of the bass bin, for all intents and purposes, has had almost NO changes since its original offering to the public over 50 years ago. However, what HAS changed over the years are the materials USED in the bass bin construction.

Up until around the mid-1970's, the materials used for the BODY of the bass bin were cut from sheets of marine-grade fir plywood (with a few parts cut from solid stock). Ever since that time, the materials used for the BODY of the bass bin have been cut from sheets of baltic birch plywood (with a few of the parts cut from American birch 3/4" plywood or solid stock).

The differences between the two types of plywood are:

Baltic birch is a hardwood and fir is a softwood.

Baltic birch plywood has more plys of wood to the same thickness material than fir plywood has, which also means it has more layers of glue within it.

Baltic birch is a stiffer material than the fir plywood, making it less prone to panel warping, which really has little, if any, bearing on the bass bin construction since every panel used in the construction is generally fully secured on its perimeters and stiffened/braced by the design of the cabinet itself...but that fact remains that baltic birch is a stiffer medium for construction than fir is.

There could be some difference in the transmission of sound throughout these two differing media, since baltic birch has a more "solid" sounding response than fir does when, for instance, one "thumps" it. This COULD also possibly have a bearing on interior resonance tendencies. As for scientific measurements confirming or denying this possibility of difference, I have none. (this would be an interesting test for Klipsch to carry out someday, I think)

I have no idea what glues are being used today for the construcion of the bass bins, but from the beginning of the company until at least the mid-1980's one of the glues used was a urea-formaldehyde glue, and BY the mid 1970's another glue had been added for SOME of the construction which is a latex-based professional woodworker's glue akin to something like "Tite-bond"...at least until the mid 1980's.

As for fasteners, screws are screws (more or less), but by the mid-1970's, self-starting hardened screws had supplanted most of the old-fashioned non-self-starting ones. SOME of the points where regular nails HAD been used in the beginning were replaced by pneumatic-gunned coated finish nails or staples by the early 1970's. Since fasteners are PRIMARILY used in construction to secure the wood tightly while the GLUE sets-up...then the glue, itself, takes over that job of providing the "bond" while the fasteners remain solely as re-inforcement...this is really a non-issue.

Therefore, the basic CONSTRUCTION of the bass bin BODY from the beginning until now has no real differences that would affect sound reproduction, unless the wood differences might come into play in this aspect.

Now, lets' look at the sheet goods used for the aesthetic portions of the K-horn cabinets. From the very beginning until sometime after the mid-1980's, the panels used for the FRONT of the bass bin and all of the VISIBLE upper cabinet construction on all of the models EXCEPT the "D"-style cabinets was finely-veneered (veneer pre-applied by the vendors) poplar-lumber-core plywood. This was supplanted sometime after the mid-1980's by finely-veneered Medium Density Fiberboard (MDF) panels.

Let's look at the differences between the two media. MDF is highly touted as an excellent material for use in sonic applications due to its CONSISTENT high density throughout. Poplar lumbercore plywood will have less-consistent density than MDF, if for no other reason than MINOR differences within the core, since the core is made up of edge-glued poplar boards, which can have varying densities within them, to include very minor voids here and there. Nevertheless, MDF is heavier stock and denser...it also is less prone to harmonic resonances and warping, and is less affected by humidity and temperature changes than ANY type of plywood is.

But, for the areas of its use on the K-horn, does this really make any SONIC difference? After all, the main body of the bass bin is not made out of MDF to begin with, just the front panel! Also, the top housing does not really, IMHO, need a sonic advantage over what poplar lumbercore plywood can provide, since it is basically just a cosmetic cover for the top-end components...but I COULD be wrong here. The use of MDF in the front panel of the bass bin COULD have some sonic advantages, since it is an INTEGRAL part of the bass bin's Construction, BUT on the "D"-style cabinet, Birch plywood was still used for that particular panel, so I have MY OWN personal doubts. (Again, this would be an interesting test for the company to take on, if they have not done so, already).

As for long-term consumer use, and the "sh!t happens" aspect of things, there are possible advantages to using poplar lumber-core plywood over using MDF in ANY application for home use. Accidental water damage to the core of either of these types of material CAN happen. With the poplar-lumber-core plywood, it is MUCH more likely that water damage COULD be repaired, but it is much less likely that a long-term repair to MDF could easily be made BY THE CONSUMER. As for impact damage repairs, the MDF would lose out to the poplar-lumbercore, too, in most scenarios.

The fact remains, though, that if poplar-lumber-core plywood had remained the material for use in construction, the rapidly rising price of it over the last two decades compared to the relatively inexpensive MDF would have caused the company to NEED to raise the price of finely-veneered models CONSIDERABLY HIGHER to make up for the additional material costs. This necessary continual rise in price for continuing the use of Poplar-lumber-core plywood MAY have adversely affected the market share that the K-horn now enjoys due to the additional cost to the consumer for the final product. It may have even led to the demise of the K-horn as a viable offering in this day of the bottom-line-intense corporate world! After all, look around for ANYTHING of its sonic reproductive capabilities at anywhere NEAR its current asking price and you will find NOTHING today. Currently, its closest competitor in its similarly-designed-category would be the 20,000+ buck a pair clones of the old JBL Hartsfield!!

Experience of the builders has, IMHO, a place in consideration, especially when it pertains to a complicated build like that of the K-horn bass bin. From the very beginning of the company's production until around the early 1980's there was very little employee turnover in the cabinet shop of the plant...as pertains to the actual BUILDERS of speakers. For at least a short time between around 1980 to 1985, there was a large turnover of seasoned employees in the cabinet shop. After that time, I have no idea what has happened. As far as this pertains to actual K-horn construction, the fact still remains that putting K-horn construction into the hands of the most-seasoned employees was the general rule up until at least the mid-1980's. After that time, I have no idea what happened, BUT it is HIGHLY LIKELY this general rule remained in effect, even though the length of time MOST of the cabinet shop employees had been in the shop by that time (1983) was considerably less, on average, than it had been previously...due to the large employee turn-over of the early 1980's.

Now, lets look at the internal components. This is where the real debate centers for most "audiophiles":

The midrange horn: Earliest K-horns had an all-wooden-construction horn, which was supplanted in the 1950's by a fiberglass and wood horn, which in turn was supplanted by an aluminum alloy horn in the 1960's, which in turn was supplanted by a composite plastic-resin horn in the late 1980's (I believe) which is still in use. Mid-driver for the horn...which one is best, etc...is regularly debated all the time on this forum.

Tweeter: For most of its life, the K-horn has used a K-77 type tweeter which is basically the old EV T-35b design changed/modified over the years. There is much debate over the different versions of this tweeter, too...as pertains to the best version.

Crossover networks are debated all the time on this forum, too...with the general consensus that the old "A" and "AA" type networks were damned good for what they were and that the most recent network is damned good, too! Of course the sound from different networks relies on the horns and drivers used WITH that network, too! So, subjectivity and personal opinion enter heavily into these debates...to include debates on the networks that some of the forum members build as modifications and/or rebuilds of some of the original networks!

Woofers: Due to the limiting factors of the bass horn design, itself, many different woofers CAN be used to power it, but most agree that the woofers used by the company are a great cost-effective match...no matter which ones were used over the years. The debate over the woofers centers more on the perceived quality of construction of the units moreso than on how effective they are in doing their jobs in the K-horn bass bin design. All of the woofers that Klipsch ever used in production do a good job in the bass bin, though!

So, there you have it...the basic pro's and con's of K-horn production over the years. Now you can roll the dice and see what comes up in whether to buy new or used...and if used, which era/version of the K-horn you might most prefer. To be totally honest, you will LOVE any version you decide to get, provided it is in proper operating condition and properly set-up! They ALL sound great to me!

[J.4knee]

HDBR wow that was quite a mouth full or in this case monitor full. I read that with great interest. I do have to admit you are one long winded typist, although given the wealth of knowledge and experience you have on this topic I don't see how you could offer any less. I particularly enjoyed your discussion on the varying media types used to construct bass bin of the mighty K-horn. And I most certainly agree with your final assessment whether it is used or new, the Klipschorn is one outstanding piece of audio artistry.

[dubai2000]

HDBR,

great post. Shouldn't you write a book(let) on Klipsch history?

Wolfram

[HDBRbuilder]

I have actually toyed with the idea of a history of Klipsch, but since I would need MUCH MORE than just the information I possess to do so, and considering I do not have access to lots of things that would be NEEDED to do this, if I ever could get around to it, it is currently out of the question.To my way of thinking, a good history of ANYTHING demands proper research and the documentation to back up the narrative. I have other more important things I need to be concentrating on at this moment, but would love to do this someday.

[hoggy]

I enjoyed your post very much HDBR.

hoggy

[Travis In Austin]

I really appreciate all of the helpful information. Today I am going to look at those speakers that are for sell on Ebay and your post has given me a lot more information in terms of what to look for.

Thanks again,

Travis