Help, I'm new on this computer thing, but long time klipsch fan, with questions

[the plummer]

I have been building my theater since I graduated high school (at least I have my priorities right). In the late eighties, I purchased a set of Chorus I's. I thought I was being investment savvy, as I was unable to tell the difference in base response between them and a set of LaScalla's on the floor. (saved a thousand bucks). What a dumb aXX I was. I really wanted a set of Belle's. Now my wife crabbs about the size of these things much less the Belles I showed her.

Anyway, I digress. I would like to know first if there is any base enhancing upgrades to my Chorus I's that I have not been privy to. I would also like to complain about my poor choice in a subwoofer. A SW10-II. can't tell if it is on or off.

Also my Academy does not seem to have the base punch a center speaker should have, since it does most of the work. wondering if I purchased another Herasy II to complement and bi-wire it to the academy if that would help with the lacking voice projection and lack of base and poor front soundstage.

My choice of rear speakers seems to be perfect. a very nice set of Heresay II's. These baby's thunder.

I was very unhappy for years with the performance of my system until I purchased a Sunfire Theater grand II from (dare I say) Ultimate Electronics. Please forgive me this was a $7500 processor and amp (450 watts RMS on five channels (Wow)) that I stole for $3500.00 I think. This baby woke my entire system up. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the length, I'm kinda wordy anyway.

[jdm56]

check out SVSubwoofers, if you crave more bass. Your SW10 covers about the same range as your Chorus speakers. Maybe a bit lower, but at reduced level - not a good match. You need a TRUE SUBwoofer!

Your Academy center should not need to produce any deep bass, if your bass management in the processor is set correctly. Check it and make sure you are crossing over to the mains and/or sub at around 80-100hz. Or even higher, if you are routing full bass to the Chorus's. Like 120hz.

Oh BTW, welcome to the joint!

[the plummer]

Thanks for the info, but I guess I did not explain myself quite right. I don't really "crave" base, like a 16 year old in a japanese sports car cruizing with the windows down looking at everybody one at a time to see if you noticed him in all his coolness, but rather I want DEEEEEEP base. The kind you can feel, not necessarily hear. But, I don't think you would understand that seeing as how you own what I have only dreamed about. Your bio reads like a wish list for me.

On to the other problem. I read an article years ago in either audiophile or stereo review, or some place like that. In which the author claimed that the center channel should be the best speaker in the house as it is used most, with the widest range of sound being produced. From cymbal crashes to Nuclear explosions. If the camera is trained on the explosion, the front speaker has to re-produce the bulk of it.

Most center channel speakers are only designed to reproduce somewhere in the middel spectrum, I was always told they were to reproduce voices. I can attest to this as when I perform a speaker test with pink noise, the center channel sounds different.

I tried once years ago to trade one of my rear channel's Heresy II's for the center academy and was wowed by the difference, but nearly destroyed my television with the magnetic interferance. Now I hear that a bucking magnet can be added to any speaker to eliminate this.

I also tried to use my SW10-II subwoofer's internal crossover and using the sub on the center channel then coming out of the sw to the academy, but again couldn't tell if it was on or off.

I wish I could convince my other half that we need a Belle for the center channel.

any thoughts on convincing her that a belle is a fine piece of furniture or somehow it will improve her life or something like that.

[eq_shadimar]

Wow you have some awesome speakers there. Your system should sound great!. A couple of thoughts for you.

First have you correctly set up the bass management in the Sunfire (I would suggest setting all speakers to small as a start)?

Second have you purchased a SPL meter and calibrated your system?

If you have awesome! If not I would suggest that you do both of those before doing anything else. It almost sounds like your bass management settings are not correct. Ok so some suggestions if you have done all that. Try moving the subwoofer around in the room to see if you get more bass from somewhere else. Try some room treatments to help the sound. You did not state how big you room is but perhaps a 10" subwoofer is way to small.

If you can swing another subwoofer I would check out the Klipsch reference line or SVS Woofers as mentioned. Hook one of these up as the LFE and then use your current one with the Academy for the center channel using the speaker level hookups.

But again I really think that your first problem is bass management and calibration.

Laters,

Jeff

[the plummer]

well, I have not used a SPL meter since we moved to this new house, but I use to have a Equalizer with a spectrum analyzer built in and I am so familiar with my system that I can usually set it by ear and do a very close job at getting it right.

Your right, I have all of my sunfire settings at large except for the center academy I set it to small. This causes the processor to throw everything from 120Hz and below to the subwoofer. I guess carver's a pretty smart feller, huh. I have pulled the sub away from the wall about 12 inches this helped a little. I'm guessing that the SW10 is too small. I recently called Klipsch and inquired about how to find a dealer that would hook me up with a cinima KPT-684. He said that I can't purchase one because I don't own a professional theater. I don't understand what it matters if a man has money to spend on something that he really wants why the seller would possibly say no.

I'll be able to end aroud that problem though. One of my employees parents own the local 5 plex theater and their going to build a new one soon. Bet I get my new sub.

My living room is a little small, but like most new homes it has an open floor plan. The kitchen, dining room, and living room are one great room with a vaulted ceiling. Approximately 450 sq. foot.

On to another problem, being virtually computer illiterate, I bought a new Dell 8300 with a wireless keyboard and mouse. I made sure it had a good sound card in it. They installed a SB Audigy 2. This is really neat when it works. I put a movie in the DVD-R and then I have to mess with the Audigy every time to get any sound out of it.

When I install my Eagles Hell Freezes Over DTS DVD, the computer stops at every track and tells me that the hardware cannot support DTS. I press play and it works fine until the next chapter. I am currently using the digital out of the computer to the digital in on my Sunfire.

Another problem when I do a test on the Audigy 2. I hear the test say "Left Front" in the left speaker, a short pause, then "Right Front" in the right speaker. then nothing else. The moniter then hilights the speaker to be tested, but I hear nothing.

Kinda odd though. I get true separation on all channels when playing a movie though.

Incidentally I have the moniter that came with the computer sitting on top of my 36" Sony XBR and have my settings set to have both moniters on the same screen. I would recommend this set up to anyone, as a movie can be runnining on the Sony while I am computing on the other.

any thoughts would be great.

[Doc Robin]

Welcome to the forum. May i suggest that you ask one of the fine people in the St Louis Area to come over and take a gander at your system. And then you can also go over and check out theirs along with your better half so that she can FEEL the difference.

I have never heard an Academy but they have been selling for a very good chunk of change on e bay lately.

And i agree that it sounds like something is out of adjustment and just needs to be fine tuned. But this may not give you what you are looking for and the only recourse is to buy more KLIPSCH. later Bill

[Audible Nectar]

Mr. Plummer, step into my office, for I have walked the same path as you, in many ways. Let's first discuss your front soundstage.

Yes, it is true that you want your center channel to be the most robust in the system - at least as formidable as your mains. Ideally, you will have 3 identical speakers across the front, to give optimum timbre matching and seamless panning from side to side.

My first incarnation of my Heritage HT used a pair of Cornwall II's (late '80's version) as mains, with an Academy at center. The Academy certainly had it's advantages, however it did show it's inferiority in some areas too. The "good" in the Academy is this: It is an excellent voice match to the Chorus and Cornwalls, especially at low to moderate SPL's (up to 90db or so). Above that, or with certain program material, it showed faults.

When playing "The Eagles: Hell Freezes Over", the Academy gets a real workout. This title runs the drums into the center channel - and at higher SPL's, the Academy strains a good deal. If I adjusted the crossover higher in the center, directional sounds would then come from the subwoofer (not desirable). The weaknesses became readily apparent - and became the motivation to get a center channel that was equivalent to the mains.

I pondered using a Belle as center channel, and was going to do modifications to allow it to be used as a TV stand. This configuration would be optimal for one with a tube set, since owning a tube causes problems with center channel placement. If you select a Belle (or a pair) with Alnico midrange and tweeter magnets, (prior to about 1980 or so) those should not cause trouble with the picture. The woofer (much lower in the speaker) should be far enough away from the tube to allow the TV to work without color distortion. A now deceased forum member used this configuration between two Klipschorns - and could be an option for you, especially if you are using a tube TV.

In my case, a funny thing happened on the way to the HT. Once I got the Belles home, my wife fell so much in love with them that they ended up in the "sitting" room, where the 2 channel system resides. Nice problem to have, but the theater still had unsolved center channel issues.

I had also made another decision in regards to timbre matching: get all identical drivers, if not speakers. Here's where doing my homework on the forum paid off.

When considering the different Heritage models, be aware of the differences in drivers and crossovers. If you mix and match these, you may have slight differences in timbre (although better than mixing in non-Heritage). In my case, I selected 3 pairs of Cornwalls, all of late '60's to early '70's vintage, all which use identical horns and drivers to achieve optimum timbre match. There is no better way to get optimum timbre matching than having 6 identical mains placed properly in the theater. It WILL be seamless, if you have the proper space to set this up.

So the question begs: what can you get away with SWMBO (she who must be obeyed) in regards to this?? I guarantee this: if she hears such a setup, she will become a believer, if she has any appreciation for good sound. My wife has only a basic understanding of why this all works so well, but during the movie, SHE GETS IT. The performance is jaw-dropping.

Also worth mentioning: Some forum members have built custom center channels for thier Heritage rigs - forum member jmalotky and others have done this, and additional info and advice is here in the archives, as well as any other pointers you may need if you decide to go custom. Also, you could do what Jeff did - hang the center speaker over the TV!

Whichever way you do this - it is worth the trouble. Trust me.

SUBWOOFER:

This is Klipsch Heritage we're talkin' about, and that's no job for a run of the mill, wimpy sub. Nothing against the SW-10, but that's a boy sent to do a man's job. This takes something above and beyond the norm - a sub with power, depth, and speed. That's like asking for Walter Payton - the "do-it-all" sub doesn't come cheap - or often.

But there are some excellent, "more affordable" subs (as opposed to expensive, which good subs usually are). In a commercially available "bottom feeder" that fits the requirements of Heritage, SVS seems the overwhelming choice. Performance for the dollar is the reason why - with exception to building your own, it's tough to get more performance for the dollar than with SVS. Think big output. As our resident sub king "TheEar" says, real subs are for those with $$$$$. No free rides here. SVS helps soften the blow to the wallet though, since they are manufacturer direct (by mail). Rarely are those who order disappointed.

Klipsch offers the RSW-15, which is a very musical, refined sub with good output, but isn't a true "bottom feeder". It's output rolls off in the lower ranges - especially below 30 hz.

I use 2 JBL professional bass bins with EQ (each with 2 15" woofers) for my LFE, which are good to 120db down to 28 hz - down 3db at 25. Not recommended to those with wife/gear issues though - they are quite large, and I have two I found out one thing about subs fast - if you are willing to have big sub cabs, they get much less expensive. If you are thinking about the 684 cabinets, watch ebay - they show up there from time to time. If you go the "pro sub" route, definitely plan on getting an EQ.

So YES, it is worth the trouble to get the proper center channel, and YES, it is worthwhile to get good, high output subwoofers for the system. And YES, I highly recommend having you and your wife see and hear a good all Heritage HT. You will then want one, and hopefully, she will too.

Once that determination is made, we can discuss specifically which models of Heritage you can add and use to make your system the best it can be.

[the plummer]

Audible Nectar,

Thanks for the confirmation of my beliefs.

I am interested in custom. In fact I noticed that there are a couple of ebay sites selling plans for both khorns and belles. I thought about bying a set of plans, but there's always that buyer be ware fear in my bones. If I decide to do this, I'm not very intelligent about crossover's settings or speaker selections. What if I built a folded woofer center channel and used the same drivers and used a powered, adjustable crossover, such as the automotive freaks use to adjust the crossover points at will. I could also use the same plans to build a freestanding horn loaded sub correct. I had some success with building a sub as a late teen. I used a plan from one of the audophile mags. of the late 80's. I bought two Radio shack 15" speakers (I know, that was a waste of money). I placed them into a cabinet that I made from A grade 3/4 plywood. This measured 36x36 on the top. It was 48 inches tall and had a 12" square port in it that I boxed in 12" deep. I then played Holst, The Planets. could not tell it was on, except I was able to feel the base in my parents basement over the Chorus 1's.

I have since dismanteled the sub when I moved to a 900 sq. ft. townhouse. Once there, I got into another money pit. Salt water fish aquariums. I cut a hole in my staircase 48X48 and set a 55 gal fish aquarium in the wall and framed around it. I left the bottom 24 inches high as the access to enter the stairwell to maintain the aquarium.

HMMM, what to do with this big hole in the wall under the aquarium. Ah Hah, I need a sub.... I remembered the homeade sub. I cut the face with the 15"s down to fit sideways under the aquarium. I placed a set of "barn door hinges to hold this heavy door up and mounted a touch latch on the other side. By this time the Radio shack speakers had been stolen as they were being used as sub speakers behind the seat in my old chevy truck. (I know, How the hell did you get them to fit. Ancient chinese secret.) So I bought a pair of MTX Terminator 15" woofers and placed them on the door. The stairwell acted as a giant woofer cabinet. (It worked well enough that my hermit crab used to think there was an earthquake every time I cranked the stereo as he would run around the bottom of the aquarium in a complete panic.

Back to the folded woofer sub. I wonder why no one makes on for sale, like say Klipsch. Since they are the benchmark for horn loaded woofers. Maybe because Horns are so directional. what are your thoughts.

[Audible Nectar]

I've been bitc#ing to Klipsch about that "horn loaded sub" ever since I got here!!! Sure wish they would build it! Every time someone mentions SVS on this forum (even myself) I think about this. Try doing a Search for "HERITAGE SUBWOOFER" and see how often my name shows up

If it's custom you are after, that begins to leave the area of MY expertise, but I can assure you, you are in the right place. I wouldn't buy the plans, chances are someone on this forum has them and could share. Many here have done their own custom work (Q-Man, SCOOTERDOG, and J-Malotky all have done such projects) and may be able to assist you here.

I would suggest settling in on what your Heritage mains are/will be, then build the custom center to match whatever your mains are. I see no reason in this case why an electronic crossover would be necessary for that speaker - in fact, that could cause some problems in and of itself. If the forum knows what the mains are and the physical requirements of the center channel, then the experts in that area can certainly be of help to assist you in building that optimum center channel and/or horn loaded subwoofer.

[the plummer]

I appreciate all the help with confirming my suspicion, albiet what I feared. Both a huge money issue and probably months of convincing the powers that be that a major change MUST occur for the continued search for the Holy Grail, Sonic Clarity and the feel of sound reaching the soul. Of which, in my experience, Klipsch has been one of the few, if not the only speaker that truly reaches the core of your soul.

But, I have not heard from any computer savvy guru's about my problems with SB Audigy 2. If I don't solve these problems soon, the powers that be is going to make me remove the computer from the HT totally and move it to the basement office. The thought of that sucks as I am sitting on my couch right now composing this message while listening to vintage Flim and the BB's (this is some of the best test CD's I have been able to find, their entire playlist is a constant testament of true quality sound reproduction), If the computer gets bannished to the basement office, I probably won't be doing much more surfing.

Help please!!!!!!

[the plummer]

Audible Nectar:

Thanks for your help and I am now in the design stages of our new home.

My first thoughts were to have the HT in the family room on the main floor. This would be cool, but I would not be able to have complete design control over it. The wife also threw a fit when I told her I wanted a pool table in the dining room, since she told me she did not want a dining room. I think she has learned not to tell me she doesn't care for something, cause I'm gonna fill it.

On to the new plan. The house plan calls for two basements. The lower basement is 57'wide and 25' deep, from the back. This will be used as garage/storage w/four garage doors across the back of the house. The second basement will be the same footprint as the main floor. The interesting thing is both basements will be totally free span areas over each other. A bar joist will run the length of the 57' and TJI Joists will be used hung on joist hangers as to keep the steel Joist up in the subfloor.

My intentions are to utilize the entire 25'X57' as a home theater/ game room. Imagine, as you step douwn the basement stairs, you are at the left side of the 57' wide basement. There will be a bathroom on the same plane as the staircase to allow the room to be a perfect rectangle. There will be a pool table in the middle of the room on the left side of the basement. As you pan right, you will observe three large windows, mimiking an atrium style home. On each side of the large windows will be a double french door, leading to a deck running the entire width of the basement.

On the same side of the basement as the bathroom and staircase, there will be a built in wet bar, in an alcove, so as not to disturb the rectangular nature of the room.

As you continue to look to the left, you will see the projector on the far left wall (the 25' side).

I have decided to budget for at least two K-horns and One Belle. I think this will be a fantastic front soundstage. I recently received a quote from a local dealer. $3000 for a Belle and $3700 Ea. for the K-Horns. I would then use my Chorus I's for side channels and the Heresy's for rear surrounds. Hoping to replace them with Belle's and K=Horns at a later date.

On to the front stage, I am leaning toward building a false wall on the projector side, as to allow the Belle to sit inside an alcove so as not to disturb the base reflections coming from the K-Horns. I will have to use my current Sunfire Theater Grand II and signature Cinimal Grand Amp for now.

I also read on another site recently where the author recomended mounting slabs of marble on the walls in the corners behind where the k-horns would sit. He said that 2 cm thick would be sufficient. I wonder if it matters using natural marble or if Cultured marble would be acceptable. Cultured marble is made of Crushed limestone and fiberglass resin. Much cheaper, and very much so available to me. The one thing is that the author did not specify as to the size of the marble slabs, only refering to the "Dope From Hope" about building false corners, of which I cannot find anywhere.

Getting tired of typing now, must rest. please respond with comments. Am I on the right track or am i about to make a huge mistake.

thanks.

[TauRus]

Just a quick note: I remember you mentioned your wife was not quite happy with the large speakers. If so, she would probably not get too extatic about SVS sub - those babies are huge. If this will be a problem, then I would like to offer one of the affordable alternatives - I heard a lot of very positive feedback about Outlaw Audio LFM-1 subwoofer ($579) that was designed by the well known Dr. Poh Ser Hsu. I am not sure if it will be a good match to your system, but it's a good idea to at least keep LFM-1 on the short list.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1.html#

[Deang]

[Audible Nectar]

Plummer,

Wow - that is a HUGE room!!

Look in the Architectural section of this forum and read about "Artto's Klipshorn Room". My advice would be, quite simply, to talk to him about this. He knows as much about this as anyone around here, and seems to enjoy assisting folks in such matters. You may not take it to the level that he has......but assuredly, he is very knowledgeable in this area.

It sounds as if you have the resources to build a potentially AWESOME system....and having the ability to build for this is a great position to be in.

[the plummer]

Audible Nectar:

I have recently had another revelation. Instead of building an offset wall on the projector screen wall, what if I held the K-horns out the exact depth of the Belle and built a false wall on the inside side of the speaker (the side nearest to the projector screen. This would allow the room to be actual size, hide the screen (sonically of course, as well as the center channel). This would also allow room for the electronics to be mounted on racks to the left and right of the projector screen, much advantageous to using the remotes and also keeps the speaker cable runs closer to the same length (something car audio freaks tweek about). This would also defeat any projector screen deflections that may inherently occurr, correct?

Also I have not heard back on wether to use cultured marble behind the K-horns as a Base deflector. I Hypothisize that the more rigid the structure, the less likely bass deflection is to occurr.

Also, to change the subject, the HT diminsions would be 25'wide, 57'long, and (I forgot to mention) 9' high.

What is the board's concensus. Let's hear it form all. I learn best by hearing from everyone, taking what makes sense from all and discarding the rest.

[the plummer]

Hey EVERYBODY:

Just wanted to bring this back to the top. Please read and respond to the previous issues. There's a lot to be learned from each other and I'm new hear....

Maybe que in others that have an opinion if you don't. Thanks,

The Plummer.

[Audible Nectar]

First, regarding the soundcard problem....it is out of the area of my expertise. Maybe my mentioning this will remind other readers of the issue, and therefore could be of assistance. That failing, try the promedia forums with that issue (lots of computer savvy there).

Second, regarding the false wall: I'm thinking the false corner (as DeanG alluded to in the "Dope From Hope" sheet) would be one solution to this problem. The false corners allow the Klipschorns to be a free standing unit that can then be installed without real corners - and can thus be moved slightly forward, back, sideways, or toed in or out, for best sound in the room.

Regarding the "false wall" concept, I have bumped the "Artto's Klipschorn Room" thread in Architectural, in an attempt to summon Artto (or anyone else who knows acoustics well) to jump in here. I'm not sure that the Belle needs to be offset - especially given the distance between the Khorns.

[artto]

Hi Plummer. Nectar mentioned maybe I should jump in on this.

You have many issues going here & so for sake of clairity I'll try address only a few at a time.

1. Klipsch recommended to me many years ago (before "HT") that the center speaker should be in the same plane at the flanking speakers. Whether or not this should be true for HT, I don't know, as I'm just getting into the HT side of things myself.

2. I don't know who mentioned the marble slab thing, but IMHO, whoever did doesn't have a clear understanding of whats going on with Khorns. I have (literally) secured my Khorns to the foundation of my house. The side walls, 8' out from the corner on each side are simply vertical & horizontal 2x4 wood studs 16" o.c. vertically, with staggared horizontal spacing & some additional staggared vertical bracing to help distribute any resonances of the 'void spaces' in the wall. The wall has four 2x12 wood plates (each side) staggard in a diamond pattern, where I shimmed & lag bolted the wall framing firmly against the foundation. Each wall was then covered first with 1/2" solid core marine grade plywood, then 5/8" sheet rock, also extending 8' out from the corner. The void space in the wall was filled with loose rock wool insulation. I then made a 'corner plate' out of 2x12 that fit the tail board on the Khorns. I used 1/2" closed cell foam weather striping on the angled edges of the corner plate to form an air-tight seal against the walls. I secured the 'corner plate' to the wall with 10 1/4"x 6" (8"?)lag screws, then secured the Khorn's tail board to the 'corner plate' with 8 1/4"x 2" lag screws (if anyone tries to steal these babies they're in for a real surprise!).

The idea here was to provide a solid mecahnical path 'to earth' for any vibrations induced by the bass horn so there would be as little "relflection" of lower frequencies back into the room as possible, at least those induced by mecahnical vibration of the walls themselves.

There were several lessons to be learned from this exercise. Regardless of how "solid" or "heavy" you make the walls, they are going to vibrate. I recall a 5 channel, fully horn-loaded system that Richard Burwen had in his home studio that had custom built bass horns made of solid concrete block and he was amazed at how much vibration was still induced. In my case I guess the design fulfilled its purpose as my neighbor on that side of the house can't really 'hear' the bass so much as they can feel it, including having things vibrate on their tables & in their cabinets.

The point here is that a horn simply needs a reasonably rigid boundary to perform it's duty. At some point the extra rigidity is simply overkill. And the extra mass will still vibrate. All you can do is minimize it. And like I said, the purpose of doing what I did, the way I did it, was not so much for the purpose of improving the performance of the horn per se', but to minimize interference of the room surfaces acting as 'passive radiators' at lower frequencies which can be a problem with Khorns because of their use of the floor & wall boundaries as an extension of part of the horn.

The most interesting thing about this excercise is that even after all of the above measures were taken, as well as sealing all the edges of the bass horns with closed cell foan tape, was that the biggest improvement in sound was not so much in the lower frequencies, but in the middle & upper frequencies. It's as if the diaphram movement in the midrange & tweeter divers is so small, that their movement is, relatively speaking, a considerable 'percentage' of the movement of the entire speaker system's vibration. It's as if the vibration of the speaker system itself is causing some kind of smearing of the sound as the diaphrams not only go back & forth but 'bounce' in other planes. Hell if I know. Just a thought. All I know is the midrange & treble became much more focused & clear.

[the plummer]

Artto:

Thanks for the input, I have been hoping that you would "pop" in at some point.

I have read many of your writings about "beefing" up the corners of your "listening room" (Way Cool, I might add), and I have come to the conclusion that the fella prescribing the Marble slabs may be trying to accomplish the same goal as you, but instead of securing everything on the interior of the wall, he's applying a material to the exterior of the wall, basically forming a barrier between the speaker and the rest of the wall.

Now, being the 17yr veteran investigator that I am, (Yes, I recently retired as a beat patrolman, to devote my time, full time to my exploding plumbing business. Ehh, either way, I'm hurding turds.) I believe that you are both on a inventive track and I surmize that a combination of your and the other fella's theory (give me a little time and I can locate the website for your reading pleasure) may be an ideal way to eliminate this vibration and harmonics that you describe.

Think of this, If a wall is built to standards of 16" OC as you have done, with no additional reinforcements, but prior to installation of sheet rock, a 1/2" layer of blue "Celotex" insulation is added, over the studs, acting as a "vibration damper", then the sheet rock installed, as in normal construction, then Cultured marble slabs glued to the sheet rock, EXACTLY AS DESCRIBED IN THE "DOPE FROM HOPE", regarding "False Corners". I believe this could effectively insulate the outside world from our offensive "noise", but also provide a stable enviornment for the sound waves to respond to. The only issue is, does the marble need to be natural or will cultured act as an acceptable stable enviornment to reflect without deflection, or is the whole idea of marble going to distort the true impression ment to be heard.

Your thoughts and the thoughts of others are welcomed and invited.

Next lets debate the base deflection caused by the Belle and the screen being in the same plane as the KHorns.

[artto]

I cant think of any reason why cultured vs. natural marble would make any difference. I also do not think a layer of ½ Celotex would act as much of a vibration damper in a natural wall corner or false corner. Bass frequency wavelengths are quite long. Even a 500Hz tone has a wavelength of more than 2. At 100Hz its more than 11. A ½ layer of absorption material will do little, if anything, to damp those frequencies. Furthermore, damping the wall corner in that manner is exactly what you dont want to do. You need the firmness, the rigidity. Thats why I used plywood & sheetrock over a heavily reinforced wall, braced & coupled against a concrete foundation..... so it would reinforce the wall, stiffen it, not damp it.

Again, to get back to the marble thing, its the hardness, rigidity, and mass of the material that would be at work here. Its not about trying to damp vibrations per se. This technique, used in conjunction with false corners is not going to insulate the outside world from our offensive noise". Solving that is an entirely different problem.

In regards to: The only issue is, does the marble need to be natural or will cultured act as an acceptable stable environment to reflect without deflection, or is the whole idea of marble going to distort the true impression meant to be heard. This seems to be a common misunderstanding of what a horn is & how it works. In the most basic terms, a horn is simply a transformer. More specifically, its an acoustic impedance transformer. It has nothing to do with reflection. Reflections here are to be avoided.

Sound pressure is defined as pressure change per unit area. In a horn, the wave front is restricted by the inner walls of the horn, and the area across the horn increases as the wave front approaches the horn mouth. So what happens here is that at the throat we have a small area and high pressure with small amplitudes, efficiently loading the diaphragm. As the wave front travels towards the horn mouth, the pressure drops, while the amplitude and the area increases. Its basically coupling the difference in density between a paper or metal diaphragm and the air, matching their impedance differences.

In the case of the Klipschorn (technically speaking, specifically the bass corner horn), the horn structure, it might be helpful to think of it as a series of horns, the mouth of one segment matching the acoustical impedance of the throat of the next section, and so on. In fancy terms the Klipschorn is a trihedral (2 wall & 1 floor surface boundaries 2+1=3 3=tri), bifurcated (basically a horn split into two halves), multiple impedance (a series of horn structures), exponential (the rate at which the horn expands), wave transmission line. Its a lot easier to just say horn. So were not talking about reflecting anything here. Its about producing a controlled expanding wavefront.

To reiterate what I said in my previous post, the reason I coupled the Khorns to the foundation was to provide a path of least resistance for low frequency mechanical vibrations (not acoustical vibration) to exit the room. And what do I have at my disposal that has the most mass and largest dimensions to accommodate the long wavelengths of the lowest frequencies? The Earth itself. Unfortunately (for me), I guess it worked better than I thought it would because the mechanical vibration goes right through the ground to my neighbors home about 20 away. But, I must also tell you that it did this before I physically coupled the speakers to the foundation. Its very difficult to stop low frequency sound transmission. Simply attempting to solve the problem by using false corners or marble slabs is not going to do it. In fine auditoriums great measures are taken to mechanically & acoustically isolate the hall from the outside world. In domestic environments these techniques are usually not practical.