OH YES!!!! Finally I have done it!!!

[maxg]

Some time ago I bought a new sound card for my PC - the Soundblaster Audigy 2 USB soundcard.

This offers a number of surprising features - the main one being the ability to record at 96KHz / 24 bit resolution.

This had me all excited as a possible means to archive off my vinyl collection, and indeed I managed to create a 96/24 recording in WAV format of a vinyl record (Tracy Chapman as it happens - Matters of the heart).

All well and dandy - but no way I could find to get it off the hard disk and onto a DVD+R (or +RW) which is what I wanted to do. Actually there is a way using professional software but at around $5000 for a license I wasnt that deperate.

Today - browsing the sites I had marked on the subject I came across http://www.eximius.nl/index.php and guess what - they have some shareware software that does exactly what I wanted, namely, pick up 96/24 WAV files and dump them out onto the hard disk in DVD-Video format - RETAINING THE 96/24.

I havent bought the software yet - but with the rather limited demo I have done a test with 4 tracks and hey presto - it works - at least on the computer.

Tonight I will test it on the DVD players I have at home. With a bit of luck we now have a way to produce your own 96/24 disks ala DVD-A!!!

[ben.]

That record will be a good test for the transfer. Nice recording.

[dubai2000]

Max,

sounds interesting. Let us know how things develop in terms of sound.

BTW: I am in no hurry (really) but please don't forget the list we talked about .

Wolfram

[NOSValves]

Max,

I was playing with recording the other day and did Norah Jones Feels like home at 24/96 with my M-Audio card. It sounds great playing from the PC to my main system. I haven't took the leap to a DVD recorder yet but you may push me to it. I sort of felt stupid shrinking it back down to 16/44 for a CD still sounds real good though.

Craig

[maxg]

OK boys (and girls for that matter) this is something you have GOT TO TRY!!!

I am stunned at the result. Quite simply 99% of the magic of vinyl seems to have been retained. I say 99% because I THINK I can still hear a minor difference - but it is real marginal and I dont think I would like to do a DBT on it.

And this is on my $70 DVD player (That just so happens to support native 96/24) with crapola interconnects going through a radioshack source selector into my pre-amp!!!

This blew away the CD completely. We are not talking about the difference between a recorded onto a black CD copy of the orginal that can sound better - we are talking a serious margin here. So like the vinyl it is uncanny.

The other great thing, of course, it the convenience. 2 hours of 96/24 music (apparently) on a single DVD - and a remote control!! Not sure about the menuing features to select tracks/albums - I assume it is there as they explain quite carefully how to lay out the directory structure for recording to include artist, album and track name - but I forgot to play with the menu and had the thing setup to autoplay.

As it happens this software does a couple of other things which I have yet to try out, including:

1. The ability to upsample from 16/44.1 to 24/96. According to their discussion forum this has quite a dramatic effect in itself. Certainly a cheaper option that buying an external upsampling DAC and worth a play. One slightly worrying thing is that some on their forum refer to changes in the soundstaging. I will have a play with this at some point shortly and refer back. I dont expect it to match the quality of the 96/24 straight through recording but it just may be better than CD.

2. The ability to record MP3 (I think) or similar onto the DVD. They talk about 192kb/s recordings allowing 45 hours of music on a disk - say typically 50 CD's (or at 256 Kb/s that should be around 38 hours of music or around 40 albums - assuming that level of recording is supported which I havent checked). Obviously the menuing is going to be pretty key here.

Other items:

Now that I can record at this quality I am interested in seeing what happens to SACD recorded thus (sorry Wolfram - it means we will have to hold a bit on what we discussed - although I will put together a list shortly).

I intend to borrow an SACD player from somewhere and rip all the good ones onto DVD's using the 2 channel analogue out.

Of course anyone with DVDa's could do the same.

All being well I will rip all my CD's to 256 kb/s MP3 and get all 400 onto 10 DVD's. I will additionally rip the SACD's at 96/24 onto around 35 DVD's and finally back up some of the better copies in my vinyl collection.

Then I will hold a mighty "garage sale" for the CD's and the SACD's (maybe even some of the vinyl - I have about 450 I dont listen to anymore - mainly rock).

Well - that is the plan anyway, and Wolfram - I promise to work hard on finding an SACD player to start with those.

What a discovery!!!

[mark1101]

Max,

Sounds great. I have the same Audigy 2 ZX card. I thought the software that comes with it is complely fragmented and difficult to use. One thing I never tried was any recording. But now it sounds like I should.

What exactly is the name of the software to use.

Also, did you try taking the 96/24 .wav files of say Tracy Chapman and burn them onto a CD? I can see why they wouldn't go onto a DVD, wrong format. But they should go onto a CD and retain the 96/24.

Thanks

[maxg]

"What exactly is the name of the software to use."

DVD+Audio creator. Its not really DVDa - but it seems to be the next best thing - maybe as good - I really dont know.

"Also, did you try taking the 96/24 .wav files of say Tracy Chapman and burn them onto a CD? I can see why they wouldn't go onto a DVD, wrong format. But they should go onto a CD and retain the 96/24."

Oh I can burn 96/24 wav files onto either DVD or CD - but then I can only play them back on the PC (unless you know something I dont - normal CD/DVD players wont read them) - so the functionality it limited even if it does save disk space.

Anyway - as I type I am upsampling Dire Straits Money for nothing into an image I will then burn onto a +RW to test. As it happens, and just for a test - I am also buring in the Tracy Chapman files that were already in 96/24 format just to see how the software copes. If it goes well I will rip a direct 96/24 from the vinyl and compare the upsampled, from CD version to the vinyl version.

Lots to do!!!

[mark1101]

Max,

Sounds like the potential exists to at least record at a high resolution whether the results are left on the PC or then transferred to another media type. For me, upsampling and leaving on the PC might not be a bad idea.

Let us know all your results. Enjoy.

[maxg]

----------------

On 5/18/2004 8:24:55 AM mark1101 wrote:

Max,

Sounds like the potential exists to at least record at a high resolution whether the results are left on the PC or then transferred to another media type. For me, upsampling and leaving on the PC might not be a bad idea.

Let us know all your results. Enjoy.

----------------

Keeping the results on the hard-disk is certainly an option, but, you are going to need a mighty beig disk for a decent collection. I seem to average around 1.5 Gb per album at 96/24. Archiving them off to DVD as WAV files is also an option (not to CD really - you need 3 CD's per at this rate).

If you are planning to offload onto DVD why not go the whole hog and create DVD's that will play in your DVD player as well. That way you can use the PC as the mood takes you rather than have it forced upon you.

[No Disc]

Max,

I'm glad this is working out for you. I almost went this route, but could not find a DVD player that I liked the sound of. They all lacked depth, had poor transparancy, and were too forward in their presentation. Probably for the best anyway, I don't have the time to dupe all my LPs to DVD anyway.

Have fun.

[mark1101]

Max,

I do have some huge hard drives. But the biggest advantage for me would be that I can have my sources for my basement system on my PC which happens to be connected to that system, and my CD collection upstairs with my livingroom system. Therefore not carrying the music around the house.

[IndyKlipschFan]

MAX your whole collection on 10 discs... Could I then purchase such a fantastic collection from you? I would never be able to amass the collection you and Alan Songer have on jazz ond other out of print stuff.. But would appreciate it for sure!!

[ben.]

Hmmm, too bad that kind of thing is illegal and unethical. I can relate to the desire for great quantities of music for next to no money, but theft is theft. Resist the urge.

[fini]

Priceless! I am quite happy this had nothing to do with potty training (given the title and all). Been there, done that!

(I am considering this as my signature...)

[IndyKlipschFan]

BClarke... I agree with you on every level for newer stuff or still released material.

Out of print, not availiable anymore.. I have no ethical reason to believe the artist with this work being sold 30+ yrs ago... And unavailiable today, would have any problem with me or anyone else getting a copy of Music. Besides, it might spark me to buy what IS in print today and thus make his record company that bought the rights to it rich and the artist, depending on the contract, with some change in it. Most of what MAX and Allen and others have, is out of print and not around anymore new.

[ben.]

Good point; gray areas abound. I wasn't trying to slam you personally, and the issue happens to be a sensitive one for me. Glad you agree.

[maxg]

----------------

On 5/18/2004 2:46:07 PM bclarke421 wrote:

Good point; gray areas abound. I wasn't trying to slam you personally, and the issue happens to be a sensitive one for me. Glad you agree.

----------------

Actually I have no plans to open up a distribution chain anytime soon. this was purely for me to be able to have easy access to a grand archive of music.

With that in mind I dont think anything I am doing is illegal (at least as far as I can understand the vaguaries of copyright as it applies to music these days).

On a side note - I do not have a magnificent Jazz collection - that is Allan alone. I do have what I consider to be a reasonable classical collection including a number of out of print titles - but Jazz is very limited.

TBabb,

DVD players are so variable in their audio playback it is quite farsical. It doesn't seem to bear much relation to the price either (for 2 channel LPCM 96/24 anyway).

The only thing to do is to create a disk and go and try it out on a bunch. Some wont play the recording at all (most DVD players will play either -R or +R but very few will play both it seems. Further even less play -RW or +RW). There is a lot of playing involved to find the best solution. If you do decide to ever follow up on it - start at the lowest priced DVD units you can find and work up.

I'll post another reply to this thread on some of the findings on recordings to date.

[maxg]

OK - I did a lot more testing last night and the results are not as encouraging as I first thought.

Bear in mind my setup is somewhat bizzare - YMMV and all that...

First off I tried out the upsampling from a CD (Dire Straits - Money for Nothing) and then did a 3 way comparison Vinyl : CD : upsampled DVD.

I should say from the outset that this particular record is not in great shape and its improvement over the original CD has always been marginal. Definite, but marginal.

Using Private Investigations as my test track (as ever) I noted the following:

1. The voice on the DVD is more recessed than on either of the other 2. It is also less defined.

2. The soundstage is not all that different in any of the formats - there may be slightly more depth on the DVD - but not in such a way as to bring benefit. In other words some instuments, and the voice as mentioned, seem further away and slightly washed out.

3. The bass on the DVD is excellent - easily a match for the vinyl. Both are better than the CD.

4. The acoustic guitar on the vinyl is untouched by anything else. There is air around the instrument that sets it apart from the other media. It just seems so real in comparison.

To summarize: In comparison to the original CD there are gains and losses and no clear winner. Some CD's will benefit from the transfer more than others I think. I'll try a large orchestral work with plenty of violins and see what happens.

Having got my ears working properly (and being less tired than the previous night) and tuned in to the differences observed from the upsampled version I then returned to the Tracy Chapman direct 96/24 recording and compared to the vinyl. (BTW - the album is not the one I originally stated - it is actually Crossroads as I have that on both vinyl and CD. Still a superb recording on all formats though.)

To my surprise the voice issue is still there. Now it seems blindingly obvious and I dont know how I missed it the first time. The soundstaging is identical, as it the depth. Bass is indistinguishable but again I felt the instrumentation is not quite as clear as on the vinyl.

I didnt compare to the CD - too late for that. I'll run that test as well soon.

Overall I have come to the conclusion that the upsampling option addresses a few issues and causes a few and therefore I think I will put that on the backburner (no pun intended) for a while. I will also rip to MP2 (which I think is DD 2 channel but I am not sure) and see what that does. If it does not dramatically worsen the CD sound I might go that route - but I have to sort out the menuing first. 40 albums without a menu will be unusable.

[doctorcilantro]

I remember reading that upsampling was not a very effective method overall; your results seem to illustrate that as well.

Recording or archiving your vinyl AT 24/96 is essential; from what I have gathered at least use 24/44, 24/48, etc.

While I don't have a DVD-A player and don't forsee getting one for a long time, my procedure with rig in sig is as follows:

Record to HD w/ Wavelab or similar.

Dehiss, denoise, edit, etc. only if needed. I don't mess with Eq'ing whatsoever. (I usually have Wavelab auto-insert track lines between tracks.)

Break the file up into individual tracks since I am archiving.

Next, compress the 29/96 files into MAC (Monkey's Audio Compression) and save in my archive (which I can still listen to while compressed).

This way I still keep the original 24/96 master copies intact on the HD. Burning to cd could be done simultaneously to cd in 16/44 with my cd player/recorder but burning DVD-A audio to dvd-rom is an option in Wavelab 5.0 I believe. But, I will probably save that chore for a day when dvd audio players are more prevelent. Since my PC is part of my stereo....which works PERFECTLY and sounds great btw... the tube hiss was because I had a hidden attenuator knob turned down on the DEE JAY (oh no!) mixer and my ratios were all screwed up.

My mixer has a digital out and is connected to my Denon cd player/recorder via digital...i think it's a 24/48 connection. Maybe one option would be to simply playback the wave in 24/96 with Wavelab and record via digital to cd.

Storage is ridiculousy huge for 24/96 pcm audio...I advise anyone to look into the various lossless compression schemes out there.

[maxg]

Doc,

"Dehiss, denoise, edit, etc. only if needed. I don't mess with Eq'ing whatsoever. (I usually have Wavelab auto-insert track lines between tracks.)"

On every test I have done to date with vinyl originals the best result is obtained when using none of the above. This may be a function of the software I am using but any filtering or supposed improvement in one area seems to degrade the overall sonics of the playback.

Sadly - the software I have found seems to be going nowhere fast. The forum is less active than a fossil - and I got very few responses to what I was trying to to and the problems I was having (with the recessed central image).

Ultimately this has proved to be merely a proof of concept for me. It is possible with a standard modern laptop computer with a DVD burner to produce 96/24 copies of vinyl originals. Right now I think that some of the algorythms are off - so I will bide my time a little longer and see if any of the more major players introduce the 96/24 recording capability onto standard DVD's.

Of course now that dual layer DVD recorders are starting to come out (with their higher 7.5 Gb capacities) there may be more of a reason for doing this. 7.5 Gb would be the equivalent of around 5 albums at full resolution.