No wonder my system sounded bright.

[cdsang]

Well, I got out my test disk and RS SPL meter and this is what I got.

201 hz,82dB

254 hz,72dB

320 hz,75dB

403 hz,70dB

507 hz,76dB

640 hz,78dB

806 hz,70dB

1000 hz,70dB

1280 hz,73dB

1612,hz,78dB, starts to act up

2029 hz,80dB

2560 hz,75dB

3226 hz,79dB

4065 hz,77dB

5120 hz,76dB

6450 hz,65dB

81247 hz,70dB and fineally back to normal

Well, I noticed on this one CD that my speakers were really bright. I just thought it was the CD, so I turned the treble all the way down, and tested it. I don't mind a +- 3 dB in my curve, but some dips and bumbs in there to big. I think the 201 has to do with my woofers being cut off at 90 hz as I don't think Klipsch expected them to be crossover down low. This would also explain why I wanted to turn my sub up but blending became a problem. It would of been a big dip down low, and way up high, but because of the middle, it wouldn't sound right. My main idea is to get a flat 70 dB at this volume level. I suppose I could buy an eq. Does useing the Tape to Monitor on my reciver work? I heard it does but have never seen it done. I know I need one for my sub. That looks alot worse then the list I just showed. Its like 60 dB one area and 91 in another. Thats 30-100 hz by the way. Lets see what you think. Anyway, thank you in advance.

CD

[Colin]

where is the rest of the range, what weighting is this? slow or fast?

The reason I ask is that usually a 2kHz bump will NOT sound bright although it may sound forward compared to the rest of the frequency response, a upper end bump will sound bright and harsch.

[meuge]

Sorry to butt in, but I noticed that you're using the Belkin 1200VA UPS. I had my eye on it for a little while, since it seems like a great way to both provide protection and condition the line, and I was wondering whether you are using it for your other equipment, or whether it's inline with the amp you use to power speakers. It looks pretty powerful, but i wasn't sure whether it can handle the needs of the speakers. I would be interested to hear your comments on this issue.

[cdsang]

Well I actually wanted to see the reason my system sounded bright. 200 hz is about were bass starts so it was pointless to go lower for what I wanted. 8000 hz is about where most music ends. You would actually be suprised that even thou most will say the human ear can hear up to 20 kHz, most people at my age(22) or above can't hear much over 16 khz. I belive I used C weighted and Fast. I suppose I should go on slow but conidering that each freqecy test last 30 secs on the CD and I useally wait until it stays the same number awhile so it may not make much of a difference. I haven't changed anything sense the test, so perhaps I could go back and test the rest. I will test 201 down to 100 and 8000 to 16000 as I don't hear much over 16000 anyway. I do have a correction chart but most of the of numbers are useally just 2 dB off most where I tested which with what I am getting makes it sound(no pun inteded)like small toast(thats a new saying). I'll be back with more numbers.

CD

[minn_male42]

----------------

On 5/27/2004 2:29:53 PM Colin wrote:

where is the rest of the range, what weighting is this? slow or fast?

The reason I ask is that usually a 2kHz bump will NOT sound bright although it may sound forward compared to the rest of the frequency response, a upper end bump will sound bright and harsch.

----------------

you are right on with the 2k bump..... jbl purposely puts that slight "bump" in their control series speakers to increase intelligibility in voices and to make their speakers sound a little "hotter".....

[minn_male42]

"8000 hz is about where most music ends."

i don't agree with your assessment..... if you cut off all frequencies above 8000 hz, your speakers would sound just like a telephone speaker.....

even an old guy like myself (45) can hear up past 15,000 hz (not much past)

but still a heck of alot higher than 8000 hz....

[cdsang]

Sorry meuge, you asked the quesiton while I was awswering the first question. Well, I use to have my UPS pluged up to my recive, RSW 15,PS2 and TV and I have only seen it have problems ones. Thats was when it was new and I was really blasting the music on a heavy bass CD. The CD goes down to 20 hz so its a pretty rough on power. But after and still blasting it with the same CD again, it didn't have problems. This is while it was pluged in and power was on. Now if you want my complaints, it makes this beeping noise about every 5 secs when the power goes off and starts useing the battery. Althought its a nice warning to let you know, shut off your stuff. I have only unpluged it once as a try out and has my reciver PS2 and TV on at low volumes and handled it ok. I did noticed the TV's pictured didn't look as good but the sound from where I was, didn't degrade. Right now, its just pluged up to my PS2, Gamecube and TV so I can save my games if the power goes out. Hours of playing and not saving and have the power go off can be very frustration. The main reason I bought it. I also noticed it had Clean Power on the box, so I figured hey, its an AC line contioner to. I was told a UPS could degrade audio because audio equipment is picker about power and PCs are not but I haven't noticed any difference. I did switch my reciver and DVD player to my Monster Cable power bar because it has a higher surge protection to it. But anyway, if you have any question, I will try to answer them.

CD

[cdsang]

ok, the full 30-16000 hz and corrected useing my correction sheet

30 hz,69 dB 403 hz,70

36 hz,70 507 hz,75.5

40 hz,75.5 640 hz,78

45 hz,75 806 hz,70

50 hz,74.5 1000 hz,70

56 hz,76.5 1280 hz,73

63 hz,63.5 1612 hz,77.5

71 hz,61.5 2029 hz,78.5

80 hz,56.5 2560 hz,73.5

89 hz,64.5 3226 hz,77.5

100 hz,74 4064 hz,75

112 hz,74 5120 hz,74

126 hz,70.5 6450 hz,63

142 hz,66.5 8124 hz,68

160 hz,65.5 10240 hz,71

201 hz,81.5 12902 hz,55.5

254 hz,72.5 16256 hz,below 50

320 hz,74.5

Some correstions may be off (only by 1 dB most in most cases)but if the chart was consistant I corrected it as was show with the frequacy between the 2 above and below it. Anyway, is that better? So what do you think?

EDIT: I forgot to metion my sub is crossover at around 90 hz to help with the 100 hz dip I had which was at was about 10 dB higher. I use to use the 120 from my reciver. From test I have done before in that potion, it seems to have improved. Also the chart looked better when I put it together. O well.

CD

[Colin]

Ok, that is better, looking at the entire frequency response tells me more about what is going on with your home movie and music reproduction system, the Rat Shack SPL meter does have some errors, but even allowing 2dB across the bottom and the top end still gives us a picture of your frequency response, with 70db at 1kHz as the reference, you have a nice 40-56Hz bump for low bass, probably from the RSW sub, but a suck-out at 63 to 89Hz (which CD tests the 71 and 89Hz?),

this suck-out could be from bass reflections in the room, the RSW will NOT help much with this, test its response, bet most of its output is 40Hz and it extends up to 140, possibly even 200Hz (have to be careful using box subs with full-range loudspeakers),

there is another smaller dip at 142 and 160, but the loudspeaker is HOT at 201Hz (201?), overall, your frequency response tips up across the critical 1-4kHz range where the ear is extraordinarily sensitive, no wonder you hear a bright presence, an EQ would help your situation, your speakers are away from the walls right?

I got a cheap ADC EQ off eBay for $30 and it helped my super-sensitive walnut-oiled Cornwall 1, with B2 crossovers, tremendously, just be careful how you use, dont try to completely correct the bumps and dips, give them about ½ of what the frequency response says you need, if you are down 13dB at 80Hz for example, try using about 6dB of gain there instead

PS, I really like using a UPS for my system cleans up the signal and protects it too.

[cdsang]

Well, I used (reading off the CD cover here,) Stryke's Basszone Test CD VOl 1. The web site doesn't seem to show this anymore, but if you have ever seen it, it would explain the strange frequency points. I haven't exactly measured the distance but just from looking at it, about 2 and half feet from the side walls. Please note that my room is only about 10-12 feet wide so space is an issue. My speakers are really close to begin with. But I should be moveing in a few years and get room that is much bigger. Other wise the RF-7s would of been out of the question. If ebay isn't my option would you suggest the cheaper eq that SVS sales. I think its $119. I think 150 would be my max. I belive bestbuy sells an eq for 100 but it doesn't have as many frequecnies to change. I think 10 for each channel(2). So which EQ do you recommend if I can't find one on ebay I don't like or can't find.

CD

[Fish]

----------------

On 5/27/2004 3:20:13 PM minn_male42 wrote:

"8000 hz is about where most music ends."

i don't agree with your assessment..... if you cut off all frequencies above 8000 hz, your speakers would sound just like a telephone speaker.....

even an old guy like myself (45) can hear up past 15,000 hz (not much past)

but still a heck of alot higher than 8000 hz....

----------------

I agree,at 43 I can hear past 15khz.

[cdsang]

For those of you who keep missing this, I didn't say 15000 hz, I said 16000. I don't have a test for 15000, but 12,000 still seems pretty high but I could still hear it. My test is at 16256 which I thought nothing was happening. My dad couldn't hear it. But I know something is going on because my SPL meter was showing a number. Others on the forum have also said they can't hear much past 16000. But if you still can, more power to you because you can hear more. But anyway, I ended my test at 16256 because I can't hear it and thought it was a good place to stop. Don't be mad please because I was going from personal experice. I wasn't trying to offend anyone.

CD

[Fish]

Hey CD,I certainly wasn't offended,just wanted to chime in that there is stuff above 8k that matters,and I can still hear it. Also I've tried the flat freq on an EQ thing,I didn't care for it,of course you may,good luck.

[DrWho]

I figured pictures were easier to work with

Btw, the ~3 foot distance of your speakers from your wall correlates with the boundary cancelation effect: boundaries (like your wall) will cause about a 6dB drop in frequencies that are a 1/4 wavelength away. 1/4 the wavelength of 80Hz is 3 feet.

A picture of your room might help, but I would actually suggest that you try moving your speakers around as your frequency response is really hurting (I would suggest pushing them out right next to the wall). A very uneven frequency response often sounds very harsh. It is also my experience that the frequencies surrounding 3kHz are the source for brightness in a system. It doesn't help when you have a dip around 80Hz (which a lot of music is heavy in) because it relatively makes the midrange seem that much louder (thus, more bright). Frequencies above 8kHz are going to be what creates the hi-hat and other similar sounds. Exagerating frequencies in this range is going to make the music sound tinny and artificial.

I wouldn't recommend using an EQ to tune your system, but I would suggest using an EQ to tune your source material. But this gets into another issue altogether and I can't seem to find my link to a really good site that discusses this. The basic idea though is to make your room sound as good as possible because EQ'ing to fix the room sounds very unnatural.

[Strabo]

Excuse my ignorace about the RF's, but do they really roll off at 16k?

At 36 I can still hear fine past 18k, and my meter registers over 19k off my Forte's.

Not personal but to anyone listening too loud too often, if you're under 30 and can't hear past 15k then you should start protecting your hearing better because it will never get better, only worse over time.

[minn_male42]

"no wonder my system sounded bright"

actually looking at your results, i would surmise that your system is anything but bright..... with the huge amount of roll-off that you have at the upper frequencies....

it is very possible that your room is causing the "brightness" that you are experiencing..... if that's the case, no amount of equalization electronically will make it much better....

you would better address the situation with some type of room treatment.....

here are some sources and reference reading...

http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/echo.htm

http://www.sigsound.com/NewPages/roomtreat.htm

http://www.acousticsfirst.com/souex.htm

http://www.asc-studio-acoustics.com/prod-room.htm

http://www.apluselectronics.com/acoustical_treatment.htm

http://www.soundscapehifi.com/en.htm

[DrWho]

----------------

On 5/28/2004 1:52:02 PM minn_male42 wrote:

actually looking at your results, i would surmise that your system is anything but bright..... with the huge amount of roll-off that you have at the upper frequencies....

it is very possible that your room is causing the "brightness" that you are experiencing..... if that's the case, no amount of equalization electronically will make it much better....

----------------

Brightness in a system doesn't portray itself in the high frequencies, but rather at the midrange (around 3kHz). If you don't believe me, bust out an EQ and crank those frequencies . likewise, turn down those frequencies and it will sound very dull.

Looking at the response curve, you'll see huge peaks at 200Hz, 500-800Hz, and 1600-5000Hz. And then huge dips from around 50-100Hz, 125-200Hz, and 5500-8000Hz. Notice that the first two dips are harmonics of each other which means that solving your 80Hz problem will most likely solve your 160Hz problem. The 200Hz dip would be responsible for making things sound boxy. The dip around the 6000Hz range will cause things to have much less of an edge.

However, a lot of the dips in the high end could be problems in how the measurements were taken. When measuring test tones at higher frequencies, a difference of even .25 inches with the SPL meter could result in differences of 12dB no problem. I would suggest moving the SPL meter around when measuring until you get the loudest measurement. This would give a better idea of how the room sounds. (Note that a difference of a few inches doesn't make as large an impact on lower frequencies)

Anyways, that dip in the low end is very real and I would claim is the biggest problem in what you hear (the lack of bass makes the mids sound relatively louder). I might even suggest turning up the highs to help accentuate the dip you see in the high end. As far as the low end, you are really going to have to work the speaker placement.

Did you do these tests with the subwoofer on? And does your subwoofer have a phase dial? If it does, I would recommend adjusting your phase by either 90 or 180 degress (a quarter or a half turn) and then run your test again. I'd even run the test without the subwoofer enabled as well. But seriously, 80Hz is the main frequency for the kick drum, toms, the bass guitar, and the low end of guitar and voice. Knock out 160Hz and you've lost all impact of the drums and bass. Also, if you can't really move your mains, I would try moving your subwoofer by a distance of 3 feet in any direction and see what that does. (btw, only do one thing at a time and see what each thing changes so that you know what's going on).

[Colin]

I would still get a cheap EQ off ebay, but in a small room, maybe you are better off dealing with the problems,

no one hears much above 16kHz, but we SENSE much higher (and much lower than 40 Hz) than that, which is one reason that a few loudspeakers go above 20 kHz and DVD-A (SACD too?) goes to 40 kHz, because it helps define the image, musical notes are complex waveforms of harmonics that extend in both directions, up and down, accurate musical representation certainly requires flat frequency response within the musical range at normal volumes, the 100 to 8 kHz, but probably also needs accurate and flat frequency response within the entire audible range (20 to 20 kHz, at young age and loud volume)

Yikes! Dr. that chart says a lot, that patient looks worse than I first thought, in my own humble opinion, the Dr is right, the dip at the VERY critical 1 kHz, where the ear is twice as sensitive as any where else on the frequency range, with a rising 10 db (!) into 4 kHz, WILL make the mid range seem bright, so do move the mains out from the wall, try a cheap EQ, pad and dampen that room with books, more books andmore books, invest in your education, improve your stereo, get more books, or get some MiniTraps for the rear corners, well worth the long term investment, crazy, I know, but everything on all your home movie and music reproduction systems from now on will always sound better

By the way, congratulations on getting a test CD and SPL meter, you are now an official tweaking audiophile, next chart the frequency response, get an EQ, run experiments and soon Klipsch swill send you an honorary pocket protector (you have to buy your own calculator though)!

Dont forget to post your age, movie and music tastes, room dimensions and front-end equipment in your system profile, this will help forum members give you thoughtful, insightful answers.

[Deang]

You said you used a "correcton sheet" -- are you sure it's right? This one is:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/49147.html

[cdsang]

DrWho, what program did you use? I find it easier to use graphs them but dunno what to use. I belive Mircosoft word has bar graphs but I forget if it does line graphs.

Dean, what do you think your crossover upgrade would do?

Just to let you all know, as you can tell I have 3 RF-7s up front but the distance between them is only a few feet apart. If less then 3 feet away from the wall is bad, then I would be better off running just one speaker. As far as room abosortion material, I would have to build boards to put the absortion matirial on.(ok i was never a good speller but I am good in math) I don't care to much for room looks as I care more about sound quality. Ever sense I got my first Klipsch speakers, sound quality started to be a big thing to me. Both parents were in the miltary, so I moved alot. So every time I moved, I would change my room to be set for a stearo as hometheater wasn't in my buget. Later on, got a reciver and added some old bookshelves as surrounds and ran my sats as mains, with,(don't laught, I was on a budget and I like klipsch) Klipsch KSW-100. Considering 99% of my system was music(now 80 music 20 movies), this set up was fine until I wanted to turn it up. Later got the RF-3II set, then the RSW-15, then my (still don't laugh, my dream speakers)Klipsch RF-7s. So as you can tell, I care more about quility. I have spent nearly every penny on audio. If it wasnt a new speaker it was either a CD or DVD or something for car audio. Perhapes the only non audio stuff was food. I even bought my cousin who is joulous of my system but wishing I could help her, got a Sony personal CD player with that G-Protection. She loves it but I wish I could help her more. Opps rabbeled. Ok, so now you know the basic audio story in my life. Anyway, I can't use my walls, and someone said that EQs sound unatural. DIY is always an option. My mom likes power tools so I have good deal tools to work with. By the way, thank you for your responces.

CD