thebes Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Given some of the uproar around here recently I commend you to read TBrennan's second reply to the "How Would Biamping Change Sound of Klipsch" thread. Reasoned, knowlegeable, informative, courteous and helpful. A stellar example of what's best about this Forum. Hat's off to the T-Man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Yeah, that's Tom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Personally, I think bi or tri amping Khorns is a waste of time. I cant speak for the Belle or other Heritage speakers, but I suspect the result will be the same. The only reason for bi or tri amping is to gain additional acoustic output from the speakers particularly if the speakers are not very efficient, or the size of the space is very large or outdoors. This dates back to the time when amplifier power was not as high & not as cheap as it is now. Its used, to some extent, depending on the application, in sound reinforcement systems, most notably, in rock concert type situations. Hell, even the Indianapolis Speedway sound system runs on one Crown 10,000 watt amplifier. Its not about high fidelity, its about acoustic horsepower. And in almost any domestic environment, that kind of horsepower & sound coverage is not required. Furthermore, bi & tri amping can actually increase the overall system distortion by the addition of the powered electronic crossover (yes, it too adds distortion) as well as the additional distortion of the additional amplifiers. In any case, the overall noise levels are certainly increased by the additional amplifiers and electronic crossover, and also contribute to producing more distortion as the noise modulates the signal. But hey, some people like the sound of distortion. And please don't bother with the arguement that you can taylor the sound of each amplifier to each driver. You're still going to wind up with more cumulative distortion and certainly more noise. And lets not forget that most solid state amps produce the highest measured distortion levels at their lowest output levels. Possibly someone using a 2A3 based amplification system on something like Khorns (actually Heresy could benefit more) could benefit from multi-amplification IF they are playing the music very loud AND have a very large space to fill with sound. So I guess I'm going to have to take sides with PWK on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnellis Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 If I liked distortion, I can assure you I would still be using a K55 mid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 There ain't nothing wrong with the K55/400 as long as don't jack the juice through them -- up to 50 wpc, and think the combination does fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnellis Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 When listening to the K55/400 by itself, or, the K55 with a K600, K700, etc., yes, it sounds very good. When doing an A/B comparison with another driver of higher quality, it sounds like sh*t and the differences are obvious. Same goes when comparing a properly biamped system to one that is strictly passive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 "Kudos to TBrennan" I thought we were sending Tommy snacks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 I like the M&M Kudos myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 ---------------- On 6/1/2004 10:27:18 PM fini wrote: "Kudos to TBrennan" I thought we were sending Tommy snacks... ---------------- We were. Don't tell me Tom doesn't like Kudos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 "When doing an A/B comparison with another driver of higher quality, it sounds like sh*t and the differences are obvious." Sure, I can believe that -- you get what you pay for. I've heard many a "great" speaker though, and in comparison to those -- the Klipsch stuff as a whole sounds very good. Better parts do equal better sound, of that I have no doubt, and there's always something "better" -- but I would hardly characterize the K55/K400/K77 combination as sounding like "sh!t" in comparison to anything. Not as good, or lacking maybe -- but nothing like you make it sound. Same goes when comparing a properly biamped system to one that is strictly passive." Probably true too -- but "properly" biamping is extremely expensive. If your into tubes like many of us are -- you have no desire to run your gear through a solid state device. Tube crossovers are cost prohibitive for most of us. I also think passives can sound very natural and transparent with the right parts. Parts can make an unbelievable amount of difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 ---------------- On 6/1/2004 9:54:40 PM johnellis wrote: If I liked distortion, I can assure you I would still be using a K55 mid. ---------------- Maybe the fast newbie needs some 'education'. A good room with excellent acoustics will do far more good than any equipment 'tweak' is capable of. It all starts with the recording. It ends with the room. And while the speaker system is typically regarded as the weakest link in the 'equipment chain', everything in between the room & the recording is somewhat academic. In the case of a Klipschorn, the room is, literally, part of the speaker. For those of you who think you know more than PWK......Kudos to you. I'd like to see you prove it, not only to me, but to yourselves, objectively, & blind, you get to control the test. And the test shall involve live source material. I wonder how many of you 'subjective types' have actually made live recordings in the same room as the playback system and been able to compare the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnellis Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Hey "no life". Thank you for the education offer. But, to be quite honest, I would much rather learn from the likes of Tom Brennan, Qman, DJK, AL K, etc. I trust what they say. And I listen. And I experiment. And, I suspect they have forgotten more than you currently know. But, once again, thank you for your offer. And yes, you bet you can tweak a room acoustically. And yes, it all begins with the recording and ends with the room. And yes, PWK was a genius. But you know what? You can't tweak a K55. They still sound like sh*t!!!! Obviously you haven't figured that one out yet!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnellis Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 ---------------- On 6/1/2004 10:45:39 PM DeanG wrote: "When doing an A/B comparison with another driver of higher quality, it sounds like sh*t and the differences are obvious." Sure, I can believe that -- you get what you pay for. I've heard many a "great" speaker though, and in comparison to those -- the Klipsch stuff as a whole sounds very good. Better parts do equal better sound, of that I have no doubt, and there's always something "better" -- but I would hardly characterize the K55/K400/K77 combination as sounding like "sh!t" in comparison to anything. Not as good, or lacking maybe -- but nothing like you make it sound. Same goes when comparing a properly biamped system to one that is strictly passive." Probably true too -- but "properly" biamping is extremely expensive. If your into tubes like many of us are -- you have no desire to run your gear through a solid state device. Tube crossovers are cost prohibitive for most of us. I also think passives can sound very natural and transparent with the right parts. Parts can make an unbelievable amount of difference. ---------------- Dean, For the record, I do agree with you on all points. I was merely jerking another posters chain. They had it coming!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 OK. I think a few of you may have missed my point. I was just struck by how informative and patient TB was in taking the time to reduce a highly technical subject into understandable prose that benefits not only the newcomer asking the question but those of us in the Forum who do not have the technical chops or background others here do. To me, his resposne,in a nutshell, illustrates the best attributes of this Forum and the help offered by Tom and so many others. Not trying to get all misty eyed here. Oh, and Fini, I had you pegged as a Froot Loops fan and TB as more of a Good and Plenty guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 OK, good n plenty to Tom then, he deserves it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Thanks Thebes, you're very kind. I like Good and Plenty, I like Chuckles too, especially the black one and the orange one. The green one I can do without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 ---------------- On 6/1/2004 11:32:08 PM johnellis wrote: Hey "no life". Thank you for the education offer. But, to be quite honest, I would much rather learn from the likes of Tom Brennan, Qman, DJK, AL K, etc. I trust what they say. And I listen. And I experiment. And, I suspect they have forgotten more than you currently know. But, once again, thank you for your offer. And yes, you bet you can tweak a room acoustically. And yes, it all begins with the recording and ends with the room. And yes, PWK was a genius. But you know what? You can't tweak a K55. They still sound like sh*t!!!! Obviously you haven't figured that one out yet!! ---------------- Well smartass, I suggest you put your money where you're mouth is! How about a challange? Winner takes all. Blind. You get to go first. You can be the judge. Blind. And we'll all get to see how great your ears are. I'll even split up my winnings with the witnesses present. What's your net worth? Please make it worth my time! You can swap out all the drivers you want. The fact of the matter is the enclosure is more important than the driver. And the other fact is you won't be able to realize what all the differences really are until you hear it in a proper acoustical environment, which is another area I suspect you have very little, if any experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 ........"in a proper acoustical enviornment"........ Point of order boys! Both systems must be reviewed in the same room. Regards, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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