Arkytype's Extreme Horn Makeover

[John Warren]

Q-man paid dearly, in fact, hes still paying!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Getting back to this post.

I think its all well and good that board members work together to develop new systems and approaches. Im turned off when they start working with manufacturers, receive compensation of some type (say, networks at cost) and then give the equipment a rave review.

[Al Klappenberger]

John,

If you don't like it, don't look...

Al K.

[Arkytype]

Colin,

We kinda discussed that idea when you were here. I will probably explore bi and/or tri-amping before I'm done with the makeover.

You had asked on an earlier post what other updates I considered before going the passive network route. I'm still interested in using something like the new Rane AC 24 Active Crossover and three high quality (tube, SS, hybrid)amplifiers. This is in no way a dig at Al's products; It isn't a solid state vs. passive crossovers issue. I want to explore all practical possibilities before once-and-for-all converting my listening room from a lab environment to a living space.

Reproducing a believable performance in my listening room is the ultimate goal I'm trying to reach. At this point, after adding the ALK networks the 511B/Beyma C25 and the Behringer equalizer, a third of my source material has been relegated to the "Sounds like hammered sh*t" section of my CD case. The well-recorded CD's are getting a serious second and third listen.

Hope that doesn't mean that when all the sawdust settles, I'll have one "Best of Slim Whitman" as my Holy Grail CD!

Lee

[Deang]

A lot of hard work to get to where you are at. You're pleased, and in the end that's all that really matters. Nice work, and even better when you feel like you're reaping benefits from it. As for me, I like my Klipschorns just the way they are. I suppose if I had a bigger room, I would need more power, and might then begin to hear some of the problems associated with the higher pressures running in the K-400/401 throat -- but for now, it pretty much sounds the way I want it to.

"...you recieved the hardware at cost from ALK. You now have a predisposed bias so your review is critically flawed."

"John, your implication is that Lee is getting paid to promote my networks or he is getting a cut from me or something."

You guys are funny sometimes. The way I see it, the less you pay, the more honest you can afford to be. If I shell out $1100 for a set of crossovers -- I'm digging my heals in no matter what I think it really sounds like. Does anyone understand what I'm saying here? I've waived my labor charges several times to lure in skeptics. The way I figure it, they already have a bias against my work, and they don't have much invested -- so they are more than likely to tell the truth. So, in a way I'm "paying" them to promote my work.

"...PWK could have used more expensive components in the networks or designed higher order filters, but remember, he was first and foremost an engineer who, by training, sought the cheapest, most efficient solution to a problem."

I probably have the least amount of experience with horns and crossovers on this board, but I have good ears. I wish PK had used better parts, I wish Klipsch would use better parts -- because they really make a big difference. With that out of the way, I can say that I think the old networks work great. I don't know the "problems", but I know I can't hear them. I built some Type A's with good quality metallized polypropylenes, silver wire, and soldered connections -- loaded them into an old set of LaScalas -- and it sounded wonderful. There wasn't anything going on that made us say, "Man, it would sure sound better IF..." -- We just sat there for two hours enjoying the music. I guess ignorance is bliss.

Al has taken an RF engineer's approach to network design for audio use. It is an elegant solution to a long-standing problem with the various Klipschorn networks.

Yes, Al is a RF engineer, who by training, seeks the most expensive, complicated solution to a problem (sorry Al, I couldn't help it!). You know Lee, a lot of people think the simple solution is the elegant solution. At any rate, I would like to hear someone elaborate a little on the "long-standing problem" with the "various" Klipschorn networks.

"So, how does the 511b/Beyma C25/ES network combination sound? The one word I found that best describes the improvements is FOCUS...the Extreme makeover combination opens up the soundfield and everything is in focus. One really interesting benefit is that the soundstage width on well-recorded source material is wider than the spacing of the horns!"

You just did a nice job of summing up the sound of my AK-4 Klipschorns, and about a hundred other systems as well.

"If you stick with the stock crossover networks, you're gonna hear bass that needs a steeper cutoff and more importantly, the phase rumdiddlies at the mid to high transition is going to sound even more unnatural. Having run many curves (amplitude and phase) at the crossover points, it's easy for me to see why the acoustic output is "scrambled" at the mid-to-high transition with the AA network."

How come I can't hear phase rumdiddlies and scrambled acoustic output at the crossover points?

[Colin]

I hear you deano, I know people who insist that their home movie and music reproduction systems are better because they paid so much

Nobody has less experience than me with drivers and crossovers

You should hear Lees set-up before jumping to conclusions, but then I think you care morte about the bass than the high end and his system emphasizes smooth (course he has an McIntosh solid-state receiver so he doesnt have to focus on bass)

Dont you just love that word, rumdiddlies?

Nice to meet you guys, well worth the trip, much easier to pick on you both having met you (Dean, your wife is lovely.)

[Deang]

Actually Colin, I just happen to always have decent bass because I choose amplifiers that have some damping and sufficient power to meet my needs. Good bass is no more or no less a priority with me than the midrange or treble. Truthfully, I'm much more sensitive to sibilance, grain, hash, and hardness in the midrange and treble, and this is the thing that kept me away from Heritage for years. It wasn't until I heard some Klipschorns with ALKS and decent tube gear that I was finally won over.

As far as amplification goes, I've never heard any MacIntosh gear, but a lot of people around here like it quite a bit -- and I'm sure it sounds great. My ears seem to really enjoy the Pentode push-pull sound -- it's just what I happen to like with my music. To me, it's just one of many ways of enjoying music. This is why I tell people to try some different things -- we don't all get excited by the same stuff. I also believe our differences in hearing make each of us sensitive to different types of distortion. For example: we played with equalizers in the 70's -- good ones, expensive ones. We set them up using signal generators, warble tone generators, and finally -- just using our ears. I hate them. Even set completely flat I can hear the low level hash coming through the speakers.

You know, we could all use the exact same gear and speakers, but because of our different rooms and different hearing -- not a single one of us would be hearing the same thing as another. Add to that the bias we take with us into listening rooms, and well...

I'm sure Lee's system sounds dynamite, but so do many other systems -- this is all I was really trying to point out. I certainly wasn't trying to assassinate a sound I've never heard.

As far as the ESN goes, I almost feel like John did the first time he saw the AK-4 network: Do you really need a sledgehammer when a flyswatter would work just as well? I honestly don't know the answer to that question.

[Al Klappenberger]

Dean,

"Yes, Al is a RF engineer, who by training, seeks the most expensive, complicated solution to a problem "

Of course.. Somebody has to do it! PWK already perfected the simplified approach. Somebody else has to do the "Rube" version!

Al K.

[Deang]

Thank God, at least someone around here still has a sense of humor.

[Colin]

Watcha talking bout Willis? I laugh at my writing all the time!

[Daddy Dee]

Dean has an interesting comment about a review being influenced by a sweetheart deal. Noting that if he had spent the retail price, whatever it was has to sound fabulous. Kind of an emperor's clothes irony there. That certainly seems a fairly common audiophile trait. In fact, I am usually suspicious of someone's review of wonderful $5K interconnects. I'm thinking, well if I'd just spent that on interconnects I'd have to think they sound fabulous.

BTW, I got a pair of Beyma tweeters on Ebay, they were delivered today. Have them sitting on top of the Khorns as a drop in replacement to the K77. They sure do sound smooth as I've listened to them this afternoon.

[Al Klappenberger]

Dee,

I snooped back through the eBay closed auctions. That's a nice deal you got on those CP25 tweeters! Cool!

BTW: Lee and I actually did a bit of horse-trading for the networks I built for him. He sent me a spare Hewlett Packard FFT spectrum analyzer to play with for a while. He got it on eBay along with another one as a non-working parts only deal and fixed it. I put it on eBay for him and sold it for more money than the cost of the networks! So.. In fact, I sent HIM money plus the networks! That means he didn't spend hardly anything for them!

Al K.

[Deang]

That's not fair. I promote your ALKs all the time and I don't get any compensation. I protest!!

[Q-Man]

Since I was brought into this I'll give a couple of reasons why I didn't go with the extreme slope network.

I put in two years trying different networks, midrange drivers, horns, and tweeters. Once I narrowed it down to which combination I thought was sounding the most real and natural it was time for a custom network. John's supper AA and Al's ALK sounded almost identical, but the AA had a slight edge. I chose to use John,s AA, but they wern't right. They were still weak in the 400 hz range.

I chose John to design my network, because he has Klipschorns and JBL tweeters like mine. He also wanted me to send him the Altec 290-16K driver and the Altec 311-90 horn. He said that you can't design a network unless you have all the components of the speaker

to measure and test. That simply made sense to me, especally after trying different cap values myself and getting nowhere.

The altec horn and driver with the JBL tweeter was a keeper. It sounded soooo much better then the stock Klipschorn. So I decided that I was going to use them no matter what John found out. So, I sent him the driver and horn and proceeded to design and build the new top ends to house the 311 horn. When I finished the tops I set them up in my theater room, because that's where they were now going to stay and I was anxious to hear them with the McIntosh amps.

I had a few weeks to get used to the sound before receiving my four networks from John. I took a chance and had him build me four of them so I would have a pair for my center channel speakers. John and I had a few phone conversations durning the design and build work, because he found and had to solve a few problems or issues. Some well placed notched filters took care of them. Another story. The networks finally arrived and I put one into one of the modified Klipschorns. I wasn't expecting to hear much of a difference. I did an A/B listening and was floored by yet another night and day improvement. It was such an improvement that I couldn't believe it. I thought that It might be the room corners or room making the difference, so I switched the networks in the speakers. I was a believer only afer finding out that the sound improvement moved with the network. This was a fantastic experience because I was already pleased with the big improvement that just the drivers and horn made.

[Al Klappenberger]

Qman,

I fully understand your thinking. You can easily get too may things going at once and get confused. You have to stop somewhere and regroup! I should not have be draged you into the discussion. I apologize!

You still should consider the extreme slope idea sometime in the future. It would be another major step forward actually allowing you to take full advantage of the 300 Hz horn by actually letting you run it down to 300 Hz. That would completely bypass the range where the Khorn bass horn is starting to pop out (300-400 Hz).

Al K.

[sfogg]

Dean,

" At any rate, I would like to hear someone elaborate a little on the "long-standing problem" with the "various" Klipschorn networks."

The simple version is how do you get a nice in phase overlap from two drivers with very different path lengths? In the K'Horns case the mid-range and the bass bin.

If you fed the two drivers the identical material (not even using a crossover) you are going to get all sorts of comb filtering artifacts and peaks and nulls from the two drivers that are reproducing the same material but that are not in acoustic phase with each other because of the additional delay imposed on the audio through the folded horn compared to the more direct mid-horn path. The extra delay is putting the woofer out of phase with the mid-horn. So in the frequency range that the two drivers are reproducing the same material you get interaction between the two which screws up response. Absolute phase has always been a slippery slope in audio but when testing for its audibility in music the main place it is readily audible is at crossover/blend points between drivers. You need good phase coherence between the blend of two drivers at their crossover points. Two drivers at varying distances from the listener can't have this if they have a wide overlap area such as given by a first order crossover.. not without playing with bi-amping and delaying the mid-range signal relative to the bass horn.

The obvious way to deal with this is to limit the interaction between the two drivers. The sharper the slope of the crossover the less this happens. Al's ES networks allow for an extremely small area of overlap between the drivers and therefor gives you minimal interaction between them. As such the difference in phase is less important since there is very little blend needed between the two. This was readily audible when I went to Al's ES networks.

You can see this sort of thing at work in various commercial speakers as well. Check out any speakers that use multiple drivers to handle the same frequency range. Right off the bat you can tell which ones are considering comb filtering artifacts by looking at the distance between the drivers and comparing that to the crossover points of the drivers. If the distance between the two drivers are more then 1/4 wavelength the highest frequency they will reproduce there is going to be comb filtering artifacts from the drivers. If the drivers are vertically stacked the artifacts will be in the vertical off axis response of the system. If they are horizontally arranged the artifacts will be in the horizontal off axis response of the system. This gets worse if you run the individual drivers above the point where they start to beam... which is related to driver size vs. wavelength. Of the two, horizontal and vertical, horizontal off axis response is more important to give a wide sweet spot for more listeners. Though it is important to have as smooth as possible vertical response too since both will affect what an on axis listener hears.

Shawn

[dodger]

Hello:

No matter whether we pay discount, wholesale or retail we have a bias. WE paid for the components/equipment.

This is the are where choice, availability and hearing curve set in. Those are in addition to what we can or cannot afford.

Bias in a person is opinion mixed with what THEY like. Every post in this thread has some element of fact, some element of opinion, some element relating to hearing curve and budget.

No one person or number of people are correct nor are they wrong.

The type of music, the way it was recorded, the quality of the CD, Tape, Vinyl Record Album are other things that combine to make the final signal that goes to Receiver, Pre-Amp, Amp, Integrated Amp and then to the speakers THEN to the ear of the Owner, Designer, no financial involvement listener.

Even if, and please note IF, Al had given the cross-overs for nothing the OWNER has to listen. Even if free (again I make no implications nor infer, or state), we can read, try to find some way to listen in our environment - furnishings, room size and all - we may like or dislike. In either case, we get to return the units.

So, each has their opinion. Each may have facts or specs, those can be twisted.

It is nice to read about the lengths that people go to in obtaining the best sound to them.

So thank you all for a learning and other ideas.

dodger

[Al Klappenberger]

Dodger,

What you say is entirely true. Bias is simply human nature. We all do it. This is where instrument measurements enter the picture. An instrument has no axe to grind. What Shawn said above can be shown on instruments to be true. I have done that as part of the research leading up to the "ES" networks. Now comes the listening tests. So far four people have them. Myself, Lee, Shawn and the forth is a frined who I will not identify by name. I don't think he is a forum member. They all seem to agree that there is an improvement in imaging. My observation is the virtual elimination of the "sweet spot". The stereo image is good everywhere in the room.

AL K.

[dodger]

----------------

On 6/6/2004 1:21:54 PM Al Klappenberger wrote:

Dodger,

What you say is entirely true. Bias is simply human nature. We all do it. This is where instrument measurements enter the picture. An instrument has no axe to grind. What Shawn said above can be shown on instruments to be true. I have done that as part of the research leading up to the "ES" networks. Now comes the listening tests. So far four people have them. Myself, Lee, Shawn and the forth is a frined who I will not identify by name. I don't think he is a forum member. They all seem to agree that there is an improvement in imaging. My observation is the virtual elimination of the "sweet spot". The stereo image is good everywhere in the room.

AL K.

----------------

Hello:

I have no disagreements.

BUT, and this is not to argue, the human ear hearing curve, the room furnishings and acoustics influence what we hear. The test scopes are a wonderful tool but if I were to put the speakers in my basement with all of the junk, actual sound vs test may well be different.

But to say that price paid is going to influence the ear and the sound holds no bearing. You have a great reputation and I know you are not going to put that on the line by saying you would give a discount (when, in fact you did NOT) bothers me.

That would be akin to saying that someone who paid full retail for K-Horns will get better sound than a person who found a pair that a dealer sold at thirty (30)% off.

The test equipment is a most useful tool, but I have seen people who swear by something that was putting out at ten (10)% distortion.

So, my point was in support of you and the Original Poster. You could give me a $10,000.00 amplifier and if it sounded poor to my ears in my house I would say so.

But, we DO agree - you have heard speakers that only needed to be moved five (5) inches to attain the best sound due to room acoustics, furnishings and hearing curve.

Take Care,

dodger

[Q-Man]

Al, no problem.

I wish that some of us could get together one day and A/B our mods.

A few pictures.

[Al Klappenberger]

Qman,

That's a serious looking drawing. It says that you did a lot of thinking about what you were building. Way to go!

I wish get-together listening sessions did not have the obsticle of hundreds or even thousnads of miles! That's puts a huge damper on such things!

Al K.