Legends Meet SVS Ultra...

[HornEd]

Well, gang, the early results are in. The question was, can a person who's tweaked a Klipsch Legend based HT system and tried dozens of subwoofers in uncounted configurations... find happiness in the first upscale offering of a tiny, upstart, Internet based, totally tubular, subwoofer manufacturer? Especially one that gets "over-the-top" consumer reviews, sets absurdly high consumer expectations for its products and customer service, AND now claims to be able to play in the over $2,500 subwoofer market!

Forty years ago, I remember taking a chance on a pair of estate-sale "monster" cornerhorns made in tiny Hope, Arkansas... by the outspoken hornfolding husband of the local German teacher... and the profound change K-horns made on the clarity, majesty and honesty I expect from any "ear-worthy" sound system... and especially one that is relatively cost-effective.

After a rougher than expected honeymoon, the answer is that I have never heard with my own two ears a better match for an upscale Klipsch HT system than a Twin SVS CS-Ultra powered by a Samson 1,000 watt amp!

I have to admit, when I first hooked them up and played the usual "subwoofer testing" DVD tracks, I was disappointed. I could hear a hum from both subs that increased with the Sampson volume control and the subs were a cut above a pair of KSW-15's... but hardly spectacular enough to warrant rave reviews from someone who has heard a Velo HGS 18" with his Klipsch collection... and spent as much on an offering from a fledging company whose principle owners had been offering free info on DIY "Sonotube" designs not so very long ago.

I answered cjett's "OK HornEd, Where are you" post in a lukewarm but honest way... and emailed SVS's Tom Vodhanel of my less than spectacular initial experience. He recommended a three-way to two-way AC adapter for the hum... brought up many other possibilities (like setting all speakers to SMALL... which I had already done) and closed with a promise to think about my problems over the weekend. Well, Tom, you can think of other things now. After having spent tens of thousands of dollars and a commensurate number of man-hours in search of a sound system on which a nonagenarian (mother) can thrive... the answer came in a 2/$1.29 AC adapter blister pack from a Target discount store!

It is hard to believe that this simple ground loop elimination process could unmask such power and glory hidden within the twin towers... that are all but hidden by the KLF 30 mains. I now know why so many consumers who have taken the perceived SVS "risk" are turned into raving, "sub-human" fanatics.

How well I remember my first earful of K-horns... the clarity, majesty and honesty! Suddenly, that image flooded my mind as onscreen, the Titanic sunk to awe inspiring new lows on my Klipsch based... and SVS bassed... system.

I have a profound love for the honest sound of Klipsch Legends and had to screw up my courage a notch to set them all to SMALL and let the new SVS twin towers carry the ball from the first octave to 90 Hz... But, honestly friends, we can only hope that the new Klipsch subwoofers will be as rich, smooth and seamless in their transition from a bottom-feeding presence to a horn-inspired crescendo. If anything, the KLF 30's increased in their majesty when relieved of their "below 90 Hz" chores.

It is one thing to market an "under $1,000" subwoofer and have it reviewed as worthy of being in the "over $2,000" class... but it is entirely something else to sell an "over $2,000" sub set and have this consumer's ears rate them as even MORE cost effective! What sets this sub apart from commercial counterparts is the keen accuracy with which every musical low note is rendered. No fuzz, no boom... just pure, unadorned truth... the kind that horns are famous for... It's no wonder Klipsch-crazed HornEd, preserver of Legends, champion of 12" woofers by-the-dozen... was carried away on twin-tubular feat! HornEd

PS: For those who haven't experienced it, the Samson 1000 is as quiet and powerful a pro performer as you are likely to ask for to power any passive pair of subs in a home environment. It has bright LED's to show when the left and right sub channels hit in the 40 Hz, 20 Hz and Clipping ranges. So far, there has been lots of 40's and 20's but nary a clip in a carload of bottom-scraping DVD test tracks. To me, "awesome" has been way overused in today's vernacular... but now it may also have become an understatement in its original sense.

------------------

"Where Legends Live! Klipsch Powered HT"

FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, KLF 10 Front Effects

BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE:

KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects

LARGE MOUTH BASS:

Twin SVS CS-Ultra sub with Samson Megawatt Amp

SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

and such... Tweakin' On!

Walnut Cornwall / KSW-15 Music Room Under Construction

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-15-2001 at 07:42 PM

[DwK]

Very cool Horn Ed.

Where you live? I think I'm gonig to come visit you when I get my car

Questions:

How low do the SVS's go?

Is the transition with the SVS and the KLF' as smooth as it was with out the SVS's just running the KLF subs?

Can I have one?

------------------

Living Room:

Yamaha Natural Sound A-500 Stereo Amplifier

2 Klipsch Heresys on A switch

2 Fisher STV-873 on B switch

My Room:

Klipsch Pro Medias

2 Fisher Surrounds

[HornEd]

Yes, DwK, you "can" like anyone else can have one... Jo-Jo's got the right idea, get an extra job... it's that kind of desire that turns "can" into "do."

So far, my measurements show the SVS can go below 20 Hz... but there is precious little quality programming that is available in that range. The value of this sub set is not how low or how loud it can go... its primary value is clear and crisp a big mouth "no boomer" bass can be. It passes the "marching drum in your living room" test better than any other that I have tried. If memory serves, bass marching drums go down to about 16 Hz.

You can bet I will be submitting these puppies... and maybe even a few distant neighbors... to an ongoing set of "earworthiness" tests. Like it says under my HornEd Avatar... I live in San Francisco, California... and, as an experienced native born son I can say, earthquakes can shake the house more than any Klipsch or SVS offering I've felt! HornEd

[RWMIN]

Horn Ed

It seems that you are saying that these are the sub of subs in your experience. Can they shake the room HARD for HT? I am getting real close to ordering one for myself.

[HornEd]

RWMIN, we've all heard the expression that there is no substitute for cubic inches... well twin SVS tubes definitely have the cubic inches! Each "TV 12-inch" woofer has 97 oz. strontium ferrite magnet muscle... and that's a "Boa Rock On Gut Feeling" to remember. And to inches & muscle add the clarity of a high Sierra lake and the delicate touch of Victoria's best Secret.

The worst I can say about these twins is that I have yet to smooth the wrinkles out of one of the "sonic sox" that upholster the outside of the tube. But, then, looks have never been my strong point.

Remember, when you load up a typical HT environment with big woofs... you're fighting a lot of devils ... like standing waves, precise speaker location and the temptation NOT to set great Klipsch speakers to SMALL. You can save money and set up time with small speakers ala the Bozo fanciers of this world... but nothing's quite like the full, rich Klipsch Sound atop a transparent pounding of an SVS bass base. It makes me wonder what their less expensive units can do... and wonder what their SS offering could possibly improve...

HornEd and his NonagenarianMom

PS: Of course, I have yet to see what subwoofing wonders are about to arise from Hope.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-16-2001 at 02:54 AM

[DillonW]

HornEd,

Following your SVS Ultra saga has turned into something of a "Matrix" parallel for me. I have really been looking forward to seeing your review on their performance in your "Legendary" living room. At the same time I find myself in the Blue Pill/Red Pill dilemma. Having read this review containing such a standing ovation, I feel myself turning pale shades of green. Could it be envy?? I try to console myself with the thought that my imagination must be painting a far better picture than reality can offer, but when I re-read your posts, your exuberance is unbridled. So now, in light of your use of my "No substitute for cubic inches" motto, I'm left wondering..... Why didn't I take the BLUE PILL??!!!!

------------------

Thanks,

Bill Dillon

Mains: LaScalas

Center: KLF C7

Front Effects: None Yet

Rears: Chorus IIs

Rear Center: None Yet

Sub: Velodyne CT150

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V3000

DVD: Sony 560D

TV: Toshiba 61" 61H70

[HornEd]

What a coincidence, Bill. We just finished watching the Matrix under the CS-Ultra influence... and, again, couldn't find the bridle... let alone the tack room. My purpose is to find the Klipsch support systems that work for me and share the knowledge. I have bought dozens of Klipsch speakers for my own use and as gifts... I have bought just one set of SVS products. I buy Klipsch because of the honesty of the "Klipsch Sound"... I don't like products that sugar coat bad sound as more and more speakers are being engineered to do.

Frankly, I had not encountered "honest" subs in the "Klipsch Sound" tradition that didn't fall into the price range of Boa's Vel 18" HGS or more. In fact, when Tom Vodhanel saw the number of large woofs I cram into my theater... he suggested that I set them all to small and buy a Vel 18" HGS.

Your reply got me to thinking, so I checked out a few posts on other boards by others in the first wave of CS-Ultra shipments. Surprisingly, they were more like my initial impressions than not... even to having problems with an initial sub-stifling ground loop and a wrinkled sonic sock. I was expecting HT punch without the rapper-car BOOM... but I was not ready for the musical accuracy that set these subs apart... that is so often lacking in pro rigs I have tried to put into home situations.

If the truth be told, I was hesitant to try SVS when they were selling the noise-prone Fidek amp... and so grateful for the new Samson 1000 amp as it pounds out 500 watts to each passive sub in utter silence. The fans are dead quiet and only come on in the hottest of times.

I think I did mutter some caution in terms of the fledgling size of SVS... and the great gobs of growing they will have to go through to become a real presence in the industry. Any seasoned executive knows that the odds are heavily against a start-up making it... and I said all things being equal, I would like to give these well intended folks the benefit of the doubt. I think the driving forces of this little web based outfit have a lot going for them... but life is more REAL than even the "Klipsch Sound"... and the folks at SVS are going to have to be good... and lucky... to get through the pitfalls of the first three or four years. Venture capital is not as plentiful these days... and for these bootstrapping guys... that is probably a good thing given the agenda of most venture capitalists.

Bill, when you used the car phrase "no substitute for cubic inches" it hit home with me... I remember when I had one of the first Chrysler 300's in San Francisco (and one of the first 36 hp (up from 25!) VW bugs at almost the same time). All those cubic inches were no match for my little blown bug on the twisting logging roads I used to run in my youth. To me, your analogy brought home the need for raw power... and it naturally followed that the contrasting delicate touch and quick response that makes music "musical" was also a feature that needed to be on the short list for sub buyers.

Oh, there is another SVS shortcoming in my view... the manual represents a good try... but lacks a professional's finish. But, I thought that would be too nit picking... for that is an area of genuine expertise in my former life.

I guess, in the spirit of candor, I should add that I searched for the location with the most punch... and decided it had more kick than my 93 year-old mom ought to put up with... so I am breaking mom in with a little more gentle placement.

Some of my excitement that may have bubbled over from my reason for the post... which is to find and share the ways and means of supporting Klipsch speakers... and not to sound like an unpaid SVS shill or star-struck teenie-bopper with a hot new romance level.

There is a lot to like in the Twin CS-Ultra... its components are "beefier" than other "Sonotube" based offerings... it has the raw ability to be set up as just about any kind of quality subwoofer you want it to be. And that fact really didn't register with me until it was doing its thing in my home theater. With all the good reviews, you just don't expect the critters to get up and howl... or give up that throaty whisper that makes one sit up and take notice. Yeah, Bill, I noticed from your sub posting that you have indeed swallowed a fine blue pill. I look forward to see what kind of review you write if you ever manage to down the right pill. Imagine that! HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-16-2001 at 01:50 PM

[HornEd]

Well, friend Bill of DillonW posting fame, your above pill/saga post has me thinking. I even reviewed a sampling of my old posts looking for the old nemesis twins, "bias" & "gush". You're right, I found "bias" overwhelmingly slanted toward horn speakers and "gush" primarily associated with out-of-production big woofers from Hope. But, I think you also have a point in that some of the joy and pain in my own experience of bootstrapping start-up firms makes my assessment of the SVS saga a little less objective than it might.

In that frank spirit, I'll share another morning after insight... SVS seems to be in that twilight zone that occurs when well intended, knowledgeable folks get together to build a new company, get enough "real world" manufacturing experience to realize they don't have the financial clout (it takes $millions) to have everything built exactly to their specifications... and are willing to put in nearly all their waking hours into hand building their product.

It is an ideal time for a collector-type, like yours truly, to take a chance and buy a better quality sample of their work... much as I did with my first set of K-Horns that probably had PWK's finger prints somewhere on them. I will probably buy one of their early "SS" hand-builts for the same reason... plus they promise to have a few more touches of "wretched excess" that gives us collector-types "gush" points.

I believe the Twin CS-Ultra fired by the S-1000 represents more blood, sweat and tears than most speaker sagas... and is truly a cut above their other products in build quality and innovation.

Cylindrical subwoofers are inherently efficient as sound producers... but, as I understand, more difficult to create on an automated high speed production line. Of course, building a production line featuring horn loaded speakers at a price point that captures the buying public's fancy is no mean feat either!

While I would like to have my OPINION be an honest one based on longstanding work-related habits, I also think that making it into my retirement years gives me license for a little "bias" & "gush" time with products that have found their way deep into my heart... until last week, Classic Klipsch horn loaded products were about all that found their way into the speaker category. They did it with consistently clean, honest and powerful performances. At first blush, the thought, materials and performance of the CS-Ultra fits in that category... and I honestly did not expect to find it to be that good. Maybe I got the "Wednesday" build using the Detroit parlance. Whatever I got, it's a keeper in its own right... and even more so the way it makes my Klipsch collection even more ear-worthy!

So, DillonW, stay true blue if you must ... but be advised beyond the fiery red rhetoric is TRUTH.

HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-17-2001 at 01:47 AM

[DrPyro]

HornEd, you bring up a very intresting point, one of the more common reasons for "noise" from amps and such is a ground loops. WHY should WE have to add a $2 part fix this problem, when it would be just as easy for the manufacture of "high quality" audio parts to use a 3 pronged plug (with 3 wire power cable) for probably less then 50 cents??? This just seems crazy that most electronic device have the 3 prong plugs except our HQ HT systems or am I missing some Electrical Engineering reason as to why we only have 2 prong plugs???

------------------

Receiver: Denon AVR-3801

DVD: Denon DVD-1000

Front: RF-3's

Rear: RS-3's

Center: RC-3

SubW: KSW-12

[HornEd]

Actually, DrPyro, the Samson S1000 comes with a three prong plug... and when the dread hum becomes a factor, one must put on a three-to-two plug adapter to sever the ground line and defeat the ground loop hum source. But, I do agree, that if such a simple part solves such a common problem, it should be included. HornEd

[DillonW]

Oh-HornEd-One,

The lure and temptation of the Red Pill beckons me so!! I too long to hear the low rumble of thunder, the pounding of hooves, and the CRASH of LIGHTNING! Oh the feeling earth trembling and the ground SSHHHAAAKKKKING! But alas, my project is yet in its infancy. I must be content with my reality, and if the blue pill keeps me content in my false reality, like the taste of that juicy steak... Then I must for a time remain plugged in. Until the time, the glorious day, when my recharged resources permit me to once again face truth! And then, on that bright and shiny day, I will strive to seek the ultra-mit truth.

All kidding aside, thanks for sharing your experience with us. I'm quite sure everyone here wants an honest, and unbridled review of any product. I will never forget the first time I heard the LaScalas, kicking Phil Collins "Air Tonight", it was my introduction to the Klipsch sound. When the drum sequence kicked in, my chest was pounded by the music like NEVER before. For the first time in my life music physically moved me. If there is another such product out there, I want to know about it. So please, EVERYONE, if some piece of equipment out there has had the ability to move you in a profound way, share it with us! And to you HornEd, thank you for you unabashed, biased, yet honest review! And yea, more POWER to ya!

------------------

Thanks,

Bill Dillon

Mains: LaScalas

Center: KLF C7

Front Effects: None Yet

Rears: Chorus IIs

Rear Center: None Yet

Sub: Velodyne CT150

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V3000

DVD: Sony 560D

TV: Toshiba 61" 61H70

[montigue]

nevermind

This message has been edited by montigue on 07-17-2001 at 02:07 AM

[Curt Jett]

Hello Ed, very glad you like the sound of your Klipsch & SVS combo. I know I was simply stunned the first time, but I was not accustomed to all the bass that you already were starting with. So are you using the SVS by themselves or as a compliment to all the other woofs you were previously using? If so, do they all blend well without cancellations? If not, are the SVS producing more/better bass than the others combined?

I haven't tried splitting mine up and have them both in one corner for the db headroom offered. Is yours sounding good in the separate corners, if so I might try this also. Also have you really tweaked them with the ART 351 EQ or just starting out with the basics?

As to the ground loop hum, lots of time another piece of equipment is the culprit, most noticeably, in lots of cases, a cable TV box. There are remedies for this at such sites as www.homeautomationnet.com and others if you would prefer not to use a ground adapter.

Sorry for all the questions. You are probably much to busy re-watching all your DVD collection now to deal with such an onslaught.

Curt

[Craig6519]

We'll HornEd glad to hear you like your SVS/Legend combo. I recieved my second 20-39CS today and I'm simply blown away by the improvement. I was watching Toy Story 2 today with my daughter and during the movie trailers there's a Trailer for a movie called Monster Inc. When they Kick or Knock on the bedroom door my entire couch shook as well as my chest!! now thats true BASS. I can't Imagine better hard hitting bass than I have now. The Ultra's must be incredible, but that's the way I feel about my CS series now.

Craig

------------------

Klipsch KLF30 Mains

Klipsch KLF-C7 Center

Klipsch KSP-S6 Surrounds

Klipsch KSB 1.1 Front Effects

Dual SVS 20-39CS Sub's

Samaon S700 Sub Amp

Yamaha DSP-A1

Yamaha MDX-793 Mini disc

Yamaha TX-492 Tuner

Sony CDP-C701ES 5 disc Player

Panasonic A110 DVD

Hitachi MX6080EM Muli-system HI-FI VCR

Hitachi 29" T.V.

Denon DP-37F Turntable

[HornEd]

Sorry for the delay, friends, although retired, I am called upon to help some old clients from time-to-time. This time it's a hard working artist, Efrain Gutierrez, born to a migrant family in West Texas who was given a course in welding when laid off by Lockheed. I was called upon by a friend to evaluate his work as a found metal artist... in what turned out to be his first street fair show. Like my first experiences with the K-horn and the SVS Ultra, I was struck by the inherent quality of Efrain's work and his naiveté as a vendor... I offered a few suggestions. He went on to win his division in the nation's largest open art street fair, has sold individual pieces for over $3k, donates his time to raise the goals of school kids in areas of socio-economic distress... and he is my friend.

After forty years of being paid for my advice, my clients will be the first to tell you that my enthusiastic praise of Klipsch, Efrain, or SVS is both heartfelt and rare.

Montigue, thanks for following the "nevermind" with an explanatory email. I think your proposed course of action has economic merit, would likely have Seb's blessing if not TV's, and will enhance your upscale Klipsch collection.

Cjett, I am indeed enjoying "new" sound discoveries in my "old" DVD library. And you are right, Curt, in your assessment of the amount of pre-SVS bass in my Legend rig... unlike Seb's posting tag line, it would not be out of character for people to ask me to "Pump up the treble!" So the essential character of a subwoofer is revealed very quickly... which is probably why I have gone through so many subs in the past six months... and been left with a hollow, gnawing bass hunger deep within. After my first taste of SVS Ultra sound banquet, I was filled... filled with the desire to hear my horns frolic upon such a deep, rich, valley of unfettered bass.

My first experiment was to create a "soundwall" around the big screen RPHD... and it works so well I am hard-pressed to tell mother we MUST move on to other experiments (she is a good deal more practical than I). Given the headroom issues created by the Legends, I owe it to the SVS Ultras to try them at their maximum advantage in their own corner. I have also yet to turn on the new EQ or take SpectraPlus measurements... I am into an "enjoy now and play later" zone... but I feel obligated by a flood of email to make a posting "burp" now and then.

Craig, I appreciate your stepping out and revealing how you too were blindsided beyond expectation by these cylindrical marvels. I usually let the engineering comparisons fall to the bona fide engineers on this board, but your wondering about the Ultras compared to your fine system urges me on.

Part of what prompted me to spend $2,700 on a sub system I haven't heard was "xmax"... a driver's clean motor throw one-way. The driver in the ultra does over 20mm each way (40mm total)... and that's about 20% MORE linear air moving capacity than can be found in the 12" driver of a single $5,000 sub with which they most closely compare. Yep, after all the heartstring plucking... I am still a bottom line kind of guy!

While I agree that your "ears" should be your final judge... you may want to give your "gut" a chance to sample the CS-Ultra too! HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-18-2001 at 09:08 AM

[Seb]

i want to know montigue or horned, what was this idea?

i'm always looking for new, possibly (and preferably) whacked-out ideas concerning bass... especially if they offer good boom for the buck!

[htxpert]

Hi All
Oh how I like the Matrix Blue pill/Red pill
analogy.Ed now that you have made the correct choice
and the veil has been lifted from your ears
have you conquered your small vs large fears?
Have you awoken from your deep sleep and fufilled
you destiny? Are you now "The One"
If so please help others that are in the clutches
of the dreaded LARGE Matrix

*In responce to the Large Vs Small Thread

[HornEd]

Fair question, Seb! I just recommended that Monty buy the subwoofer you hailed in AudioReview as the best for his particular situation. Hey, I respect/enjoy what you have to say... seriously or in jest. Lessez les bonne temps Bo0o°oOoM avec Seb!"

Htexpert... I've had the SMALL bug for over a decade... that's why I try so many subwoofers, I expect them to carry their assigned load with musical precision and "boomlessly" awesome detail. When building a showroom theater (pre Dolby ProLogic) I learned my dual 15" mains sounded much better when they were freed from the work assigned to a 15" floor firing sub that I hid in a custom lectern. As mentioned in a previous post, I support reading the "Large vs. Small" thread... with our without the red or blue pills.

Well, today's "Little Old Mother Stimulator" is the dts version of "Twister." I hear my name... it's time to roll 'em. HornEd

[Seb]

coincidence...

i just watched "Twister" with my girflfriend yesterday...

the dolby digital version though. I wish I had access to the dts one, it wouldn't be wasted on this film, seeing as the bass already shook me pretty well in dd 5.1...

sometimes i wonder why dts doesn't push more to have more action movies mixed in dts as opposed to films like "Family Man" and "American Beauty"...

I watched Final Fantasy recently, and I REALLY hope they release it in dts, with all the highs there are...

somewhat annoying, but not as much as the fact that they don't release movies both in widescreen and standard ratios anymore... oops, off on a tangent again!

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

[HornEd]

Seb, on the dts issue, many, many films come in two versions because Blockbuster, a major consumer and outlet of DVD's usually gets a better deal without dts royalty fees and, apparently, their executives do not believe there are sufficient dts units yet in the marketplace to make it worthwhile for them.

Concequently I rent their DVD's (30 days at one a day for $20 plus a bonus free rental for every five rented under the special program... that makes an average rental very cheap)... but I still get ticked when I see the dts logo at the end of a DVD that only lets me access the film in DD 5.1!

I had some more to say on this general subject in answer to "a few questions" thread by iXstreme under Home Theater.

"Twister" in dts matrixed to 6.1 with front effects and the SVS Ultras really pumping sure beats the Metreon (Sony's upscale S.F. giant screen awesome sound movie house)! Obviously, the amount of air pumped by my woofers in the restricted area of my HT is a much higher ratio than I get in a Metreon seat. Due to my former role in the computer industry, I often get invited to special Silicon Valley VIP presentations at the Metreon. It is a good feeling to know that Klipsch buyers can achieve such quality in their own home... even with a herd obsolete horns like mine!

Oh, since you got your new sub, Seb, your neighbor wants to know if you can pump up the treble! HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-20-2001 at 04:20 PM