Clipped and Shorn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 and why? Who exactly is the most offended by freedom of speech, by dialogue, by dissenting discussion? Who exactly is this moderating protecting? Which foul mouthed flamers are so fragile that their sensibilities are offended by the other's brand of foul mouthed flames? Who exactly cannot take the fire of controversy and cannot bare to see the reality of polarization for what it is? Is censorship really about "decency"? Or what exactly? What exactly are we trying the "hide"? C&S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I feel your pain........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 morning all, what the hell are you doing up so late? me? I just got home!! I was offended by the grotesque graphic of **** squirting posted by HondaRacing and posted an alert to all (my opinion, of course) I am offended by native-born Americans who know so little about the wonderful freedoms we have here, including capitalism, and so little about other countries, including Canada and Mexico, that they are quick to limit those precious freedoms in the face of mere umbrage and rudeness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerSix Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Sigh ... Its been a long time since Ive written here so I dont know what all the hullabaloo is about, but reading between the lines in other posts it seems pretty obvious that there is a lot of bad blood shed as of late. Moderators, I know this is your board and youve made it clear that you will rigidly enforce the house rules (that we all agreed too), but it seems to me that in your desire to keep things civil you have inadvertently sown the seeds of discontent through heavy-handed moderation. A long time ago, this forum was at its happiest when folks were freely allowed to discuss topics without constant fear of reprisal from moderators. Years ago, my ex gave me a book called Mars are from Venus or something to that effect and though I didnt completely read the entire book (maybe thats why we are not together ) I do recall a section about allowing your spouse rubber band time. In short, people need their space to stretch. Eventually, theyll snap back and everything will be back to normal. However, if you try to curtail their freedom (regardless of what that may be) then that is when all hell breaks out. This is what I see happening here. It reminds me of a quote I once heard, I cant remember who said it or exactly how it was said, but it went something like this: The more folks try to control the situation, the more likely it will slip through their fingers. Just some food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juba310 Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I dont think its so much that people are offended, as it is that it makes the boards not as newbie friendly. Thats my take on it, anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I find the most disturbing trend on these boards not to be the arguments, but the "sockpuppeting" - reappearing as another screenname for the express purpose of ridding oneself of prior forum baggage. Not to discourage new members here, but there have been entirely too many posts by "newbies" who just know too damn much - who are too comfortable waltzing in with strong opinions. I suspect that many of these so called "newbies" aren't really "newbies" at all - just former forum members with new identities who have created so much bad will that thier reputation preceeds itself. If you are a true "newbie", please do not refrain from posting due to my suspicions, as you have as much a right to post here as I do. As strong as some of my opinions are, and have been, they are just that - opinions. I don't make a habit out of attacking the poster, just the argument. That's where the distinction is drawn, and where I think our members and Klipsch needs to draw the line as well. Regardless of topic, as long as it doesn't get to a level of personal attack, I'm OK with it. One of the strongest attributes of this forum was the free exchange of information - audio, political, social, or otherwise. As an example, I am free to recommend SVS subs over Klipsch product if I deem it beneficial to the asking poster. If Klipsch were to attempt to squelch such comments/recommendations, my respect for such forum would go "down the tubes" (pardon the pun), because unfiltered information works best here - I have a mind of my own, and can filter and process information on my own. Klipsch product is good enough to not need such "protections" anyway. Let the info flow, and let the chips fall where they may. While it is Klipsch's choice as to how they run this forum - and I certainly respect that - I will say that this forum's status as "best audio forum on the net" has taken a step back. There is still lots of good stuff here, but the restricted flow of info isn't helping. I know the mods and Klipsch mean well, and are doing thier best to make it a welcoming place, but as in politics, audio, or any subject, restricting information flow never works. That's what our brains are for - to make sense out of that information. What one does with such info, and how one uses it, is up to the reader. And with that, another rarity - agreeing with Ranger Six. But he is spot on here....the more one tries to apply control, the more complicated it becomes. It's like herding cats. IMO, all this forum needs is three things: 1. A place for the off topic 2. Mild moderation to enforce one basic rule: Attack the argument, not the poster personally. 3. Mild moderation to occasionally place topics where they are better suited (mostly relocating off topic stuff, so posters can find 2 channel info in 2 channel, HT in HT, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Audible Nectar & Ranger, Both of you, well said! And how refreshing to read through a thread in which we're repectfully disecting policy without seeing someone saw, "It's simple...just follow the rules..." I can understand the desire to have the forum appear well-behaved for newbies. When my wife and I entertain new friends, we hope our 13 and 15 year old girls can at least give the impression they get along. But things usually fall apart, and one or both end up running through the house, yelling, and carrying on, theatening murder, etc. It ends up being a good test for our new friends: Can they relate? Do their kids (nieces, nephews) do this? Do we all go through this? Most people can spot "rubber band time" in action (especially parents), and know it'll "snap back." Yeah, everyone has different parenting styles, too. In fact, my wife tends to not want to hear the excuses for misbehavior (especially when she's tired), and I tend to let the girls express themselves (seems to make 'em feel better, and it's modelling a behavior I'd like to see them adopt. You know, tolerance for opposing opinions, letting the other person speak, insisting on civility). My girls are turning out to be pretty amazing women: Smart, opinionated, strong. I like that! Even if they disagree with me! Clipped, Good thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerSix Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 ---------------- On 6/27/2004 7:52:25 AM Audible Nectar wrote: And with that, another rarity - agreeing with Ranger Six . But he is spot on here....the more one tries to apply control, the more complicated it becomes. It's like herding cats. ---------------- Damn, I don't know if I should kick your *** or shake your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Do like I do when I can't decide: Shake your ***! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I think the point being missed here is that the purveyors of this forum have declared no political posts. What is so hard about finding another venue to post that information? The reason you can recommend SVS over Klipsch or Altec horns over Klipsch is because those issues fit the mold or format of the forum. As we have seen self-control is not affective here. The issues being posted are very volatile issues about which people in our society today are very nay extremely polarized. I believe people are so polarized they cannot separate their opinions and beliefs from themselves. Its kind of like our politicians and their vitriolic discussions/accusations. So the philosophy of attack the position not the person simply does not work for the most part here, as a significant portion of our populous on this forum feel the attack is personal even though its original intent was to challenge someones position and not their person. The, I hate Kerry/I hate Bush or I hate whom or whatever, mentality has so deeply rooted itself in our society we have become virtually inseparable from our stance. The Anti-Bush types absolutely love F-9/11 and similar rhetoric. And the Anti-Kerry types are as equally polarized against it. In short its the ultimate form of dont discuss politics or religion. I myself have a very strong opinion regarding these issues and what is common sense to me is lost on those who posses a differing opinion and vice versa. So debate and dissension will not work here because as we have seen an amicable disagreement is simply not achievable. So I guess my point is what is wrong with having a benign forum that excludes these issues that are thrust into our lives 24/7? The free speech argument is moot here; your government is not restricting your free speech. I can prevent you from talking about what ever I wish in my home. Klipsch has that same right to exclude issues they feel do not promote or foster good relations on their forum. I am sorry this is so disorganized but I am tired of the incessant bantering that is going on, on this forum. To answer another post who is offended by political posts on this forum - Me! I have the same right to be free of this discussion here as those who feel they have the right to post it. Your challenge I can simply avoid the post is not realistic to do so would be to avoid certain parts of the forum entirely, so where is the option, hang out in the two channel, we all know how tame that is (No offense intended). Anyway these are just my thoughts. R/Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I am offended you are offended. Your argument is similar to that of the non-smokers vs. the smokers with regards to smoking in bars. Only those with an agenda fail to realize both sides can have their freedoms simply by choosing to avoid those establishments which cater to one or the other. Likewise, on this forum, if you posted a political topic it is simple enough to declare so in the title and those whom can't discuss such issues could avoid it. But no, just like the non-smoking activists, they will not be content until they succeed in banning it everywhere - all the while declaring their adherence to democratic ideals. My apologies. The anti-smoking zealots really piss me off... even if I agree one shouldn't smoke. One of my favorite commedians - who is black - remarks "ask a white man who he is voting for and he will respond totally dismayed and chastise you for asking such a personal question. He is more than content to discuss his sex life with his wife but discussing politics is far too personal. Ask a black man and he will not only tell you who he is voting for but why he is voting for him as well as why he is not voting for every other mother&$($&." A populace incapable of discussing politics and the merits of one candidate vs. another; the question should be do we even deserve freedom with this lack of insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I am sorry you are offended but it clearly demonstrates my point; you are so firmly attached to your position that you are offended by mine. There is no civility left in the discussion once that occurs. So why have the discussion on an audio BBS, why not take to a more suitable venue like a political forum where this type of discussion is more welcome and appropriate? My argument is simple you and I, like everyone else, were told this forum will no longer support political discussions. What is at risk is the forum being shut down. You simply dont have the right to take that away from everyone simply because you wish to post a particular topic here. Take it somewhere else. I doubt you would foster a discussion about the endowments of a porn star in church; it simply would not be welcome. We have been informed that political issues are not welcome here. Take it somewhere else. My argument is not about what you discuss its about where you discuss it. Your Dave Chappel comment was amusing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 My take on this - This forum is part of Klipsch's marketing effort - ie, they see this forum as a way to sell more product and gain feedback from users of their product. However, if the community becomes politicized, and if a certain viewpoint (Conservative, Liberal, Right-wing, Left-wing, et al) is seen to dominate, or the majority seem to espouse one particular philosophy, it will polarize debate. More importantly, it's possible that new Klipsch customers might be offended by what's written here, and subconsciously align Klipsch with whatever viewpoint(s) are found here. That could hurt sales. Why would Klipsch take that chance? They've everything to lose, and nothing to gain. After all, there's a bazillion forums/news groups for political debate. I see it as perfectly within their rights to focus the group via moderation, on AUDIO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted June 27, 2004 Author Share Posted June 27, 2004 ---------------- On 6/27/2004 1:22:27 PM J.4knee wrote: My argument is simple you and I, like everyone else, were told this forum will no longer support political discussions. " This is just a recent band-aid rule, and we are challenging its wisdom here as a discussion topic. Do you really have a bumbper sticker which reads "DO NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY"? You don't see too many of those. "I dont think its so much that people are offended, as it is that it makes the boards not as newbie friendly. Thats my take on it, anyhow. " There was never a shortage of newbies before, all of us were at one time newbies. It worked fine. The constructive suggestions in this thread would tune it up without all the heavy handed moderation. C&S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 ---------------- On 6/27/2004 1:22:27 PM J.4knee wrote: I am sorry you are offended but it clearly demonstrates my point; you are so firmly attached to your position that you are offended by mine. I doubt you would foster a discussion about the endowments of a porn star in church; it simply would not be welcome. ---------------- My statement does not demonstrate anything other than I am capable of being facetious and I find the 'offends' defense to be without any merit. To your other point, the hell I wouldn't. Jesus welcomed prostitutes, he didn't ban them. I wouldn't conduct a sermon on it but I damn sure would inject it into a conversation if it needed to be. Klipsch will not shut this board down. It provides entirely too much goodwill, demonstrates a community passionate about their products, and provides free technical support at little cost to Klipsch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Did not mean to offend SO SOR Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Did not mean to offend. SO SORRY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted June 27, 2004 Author Share Posted June 27, 2004 I think we need to start seeing the connection between barbaric enemy terrorist and local trolls, spammers, and domestic spoilers, violent or otherwise. c&s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 No girls aloud.....Boy Scouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Fahrenheit 9/11,go watch it people if any of you feel a twisting chest pain...YOU ARE GUILTY TOO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Who is offended? Me! Count me in! There is not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU that I would consider worthy of supplying me advice in the political, religious, financial, ethical, romantic aspects of my life, or my career options. However; there is an entire hoard of you that I would consider to be the pentultimate and the utmost superior advisors regarding my selections of Home Theater,Audio, and Electronics equipment. Be All You Can Be....But Don't Be What You Are NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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