neo33 Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 "I'm at a loss to know why SET devotees resort to magic, when there are solid, comprehensible, indisbutable, concrete differences in the operation of a SET, SEP, PP-A, or PP-AB amplifier, that very well explain the SOME of the sonic difference, and account for the preferences people develop for each." I am having a hard time comprehending your thought here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 magic is the subjective description of the otherwise scientific and objective valuation of solid, comprehensible, indisputable and concrete qualities in amplifier operation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Yeah well, I already "knew" that. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ....the Audio Space AS-300B has remote control as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 7:44:59 PM neo33 wrote: "I'm at a loss to know why SET devotees resort to magic, when there are solid, comprehensible, indisbutable, concrete differences in the operation of a SET, SEP, PP-A, or PP-AB amplifier, that very well explain the SOME of the sonic difference, and account for the preferences people develop for each." ---------------- Frankly it is difficult for me to workout the whole SET, SEP, PP issues at the moment. The only way I can work things out is read what you guys are arguing (reasoning?) about. I'm starting to pick up some of the arguments, but at the moment I can only rely on what I hear, and I've been impressed with SET, despite what some other have been saying. Is it magic? I don't know, but it sure sounds okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 8:23:13 PM edwinr wrote: Frankly it is difficult for me to workout the whole SET, SEP, PP issues at the moment. The only way I can work things out is read what you guys are arguing (reasoning?) about. I'm starting to pick up some of the arguments, but at the moment I can only rely on what I hear, and I've been impressed with SET, despite what some other have been saying. Is it magic? I don't know, but it sure sounds okay. ---------------- Edwin, I can't think of a single decision you could make that would be more detrimental to your new Klipschorns than to underpower them with SET amps. Although 8W will get you closer to where you need to be than 3.5W or, heaven forbid, 1.8W, it still isn't good enough. Klipsch recommends a minimum of 20W for a reason. All quality aspects set aside for the moment, you can scratch out everything under, say, 10W without even thinking about it. Anything in that range just doesn't have enough power to be taken seriously. Once you get to a decent level, 20W, then you can start evaluating sonic quality and build quality and eye appeal, value, etc. This is not in my humble opinion. This is factual. Your opinion may vary, but if so it will be flying in the face of physics into the realm of magic and out of the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 8:17:28 PM mdeneen wrote: ........................................................................................................ There are tons of good reasons to prefer SET, resorting to magic is not useful. mdeneen ---------------- Mark, I know you always seem to provide yourself " wiggle room". Now that your are on record, I'd be interested to see you list a portion of the first ton of reasons. For some reason, maybe just my imagination, you've always listed reasons not to prefer SET. I do know from conversations with a few amp designers who have executed PP and SETdesigns, state that a SET design, if properly executed, should sound "better" than a PP design. There is much that can be questioned about the use of the term better, but for now, I'm waiting on some of the "tons of good reasons to prefer SET" from your point of view. Needless to say, I'm not trying to convince myself, I prefer SET, but I think it would be good for others to see that you do recognize there are good reasons to prefer SET. Klipsch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 9:08:24 PM paulparrot wrote: ---------------- On 7/6/2004 8:23:13 PM edwinr wrote: Frankly it is difficult for me to workout the whole SET, SEP, PP issues at the moment. The only way I can work things out is read what you guys are arguing (reasoning?) about. I'm starting to pick up some of the arguments, but at the moment I can only rely on what I hear, and I've been impressed with SET, despite what some other have been saying. Is it magic? I don't know, but it sure sounds okay. ---------------- Edwin, I can't think of a single decision you could make that would be more detrimental to your new Klipschorns than to underpower them with SET amps. Although 8W will get you closer to where you need to be than 3.5W or, heaven forbid, 1.8W, it still isn't good enough. Klipsch recommends a minimum of 20W for a reason. All quality aspects set aside for the moment, you can scratch out everything under, say, 10W without even thinking about it. Anything in that range just doesn't have enough power to be taken seriously. Once you get to a decent level, 20W, then you can start evaluating sonic quality and build quality and eye appeal, value, etc. This is not in my humble opinion. This is factual. Your opinion may vary, but if so it will be flying in the face of physics into the realm of magic and out of the real world. ---------------- The most detrimental thing he could do is take your advice as stated above. You have no facts to back this. It is only your humble opinion. Klipsch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Edwinr, As you have picked up on, there are some pretty strong opinions about whether SET or PP is the way to go. Forum folks have been helpful to me in describing their preferences. My suggestion would be to think of this amp selection as an opportunity to taste/hear some different types of tube amps. One thing attractive about used gear is that if not preferred, it can be resold to recover most (or on a good day) all or more of the purchased price. One other observation is that there are a heck of alot of people on this forum who keep SET and PP in their stable to set up in the system when the mood strikes them. SET is not magic, but to my ears and my musical tastes, it sounds fabulous on my Khorns. Anyone's preference of one over the other will be subjective, no way around that. And I have to say that taking some time to enjoy the different types is the way to find out what is your cup of tea. That is great fun. I have found it most interesting the Mr. Paul had a pair of 2A3 PP monoblocks putting out about 10 wpc (I think). I listen to Wright WPA 3.5 2A3 monoblocks and think they are sweet. Geo. Wright also builds a 2A3 PP called Mono 10. Saw a pair of those go quickly on Audiogon a few weeks ago for $1200. They are 2K new. There are some days I'd really like to hear a pair of those. How I hear people describing them is that they retain that 2A3 sound with a little more punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 9:24:31 PM DaddyDee wrote: Anyone's preference of one over the other will be subjective, no way around that. And I have to say that taking some time to enjoy the different types is the way to find out what is your cup of tea. That is great fun. ---------------- Wise words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I still think music types and listening habits dictate the proper choice. What's "best" is what works best with your music and listening preferences. For me, its very uncomplicated. It needs to move some air. It need to scoot pretty good without upsetting the inner ear. It needs to be clean. It needs to be open. It needs to pound. It needs to shake, rattle, and roll. In short, it needs to load up the room and sound pleasing. The truth is, I listen primarily to highly compressed Rock and Metal, and I'm just not concerned with 75% of the stuff audiophiles fret over. My system is built to do the one thing I enjoy most -- JAM. However, I would love to have Dee's Wrights in my workroom and a pair of RB-5s. Perfect for late night soldering without disturbing the TV viewers in the adjacent area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 ---------------- On 7/6/2004 9:49:58 PM paulparrot wrote: ---------------- On 7/6/2004 9:24:31 PM DaddyDee wrote: Anyone's preference of one over the other will be subjective, no way around that. And I have to say that taking some time to enjoy the different types is the way to find out what is your cup of tea. That is great fun. ---------------- Wise words. ---------------- What Parrot said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middlecreekguy Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I for one, after getting my first tubed amp a couple of months ago, can clearly see the need or the desire to have more than one amp. I agree with Dean in that I need power to move lots of air, but it would be nice to have something that did not go BUMP in the night. Just bump. Though it will be sometime down the road before I take that SET step, I would enjoy having the choice on which amp to power up for the weekend. Or is this just another symptom of.............. > > > > > > > > > > >............THE DISEASE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 7, 2004 Author Share Posted July 7, 2004 "Once you get to a decent level, 20W, then you can start evaluating sonic quality and build quality and eye appeal, value, etc." Apparently, you're are forcing your opinion down other people throat, Paul. "Decent level" is relative. What decent to you may be LOUD to other. 20W is PWK SUBJECTIVE opinion, nothing more and nothing less. What part of relative don't you understand, Paul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
middlecreekguy Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 ---------------- On 7/7/2004 3:11:05 AM neo33 wrote: Apparently, you're are forcing your opinion down other people throat, Paul. "Decent level" is relative. What decent to you may be LOUD to other. 20W is PWK SUBJECTIVE opinion, nothing more and nothing less. What part of relative don't you understand, Paul? ---------------- Are you drinking Neo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I went out with two girls once. One was slim, soft-spoken, and demure. The other was full-bodied, out-spoken, and gregarious. Both were highly skilled when we retired for the evening but the first was simply magical. I never felt the need to quantify the reasons why nor was I inclined to choose one over the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Hi, Edwin: I just spent 45 mins. writing a response to your interest in SET and other types of amplifiers, and hit 'submit.' The computer had some sort of electronic cough, and then I got an error message. My post vanished! Anyway. I also have speakers similar to your Loth X. Mine are Lowther PM2As in rear-laoded horns. The essential part of my message was to encourage you to have fun with this, and listen to both types of amps if you are able. The search is the fun part, and there is no reason to lock yourself into either an SET or PP prison. I enjoy both types of amps in my system, but use them for different kinds of music. I also recently built 1.5 watt amps for two forum members, and was amazed at how powerful that small amount of power sounded with our Klipschorns. It just depends on what you like...... Have fun! Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Erik, Just a small tip if you are using a windows PC. When you are writing a large message (not that I ever do of course) BEFORE hitting the submit button, with the cursor anywhere in the text press "Ctrl A" and then "Ctrl C". In order - this selects everything you have written and then copies it to the clipboard. Should anything untoward happen during posting - just start a new post and press "Ctrl V" to paste the contents you have just written back in without re-typing a single word. I have used this many times and saved long posts from disappearing into the ether... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Hi, Max: How in the world did you figure out how to do that?! There have been lots of posts that have just gone 'poof' before my eyes, and had no idea there was a way to prevent it, or at least save some extra typing. I'm at least lucky I can type reasonably quickly. Anyway, Thanks! I will make a note of those directions! Mark: I agree with your focus on the science over magic viewpoint. I believe some of the so-called 'magic' (which I also happen to enjoy)is actually another name -- a euphemism, perhaps? -- for the distortion characteristics single-ended triode amps. In other words, the original recording is being colored and altered (aka DISTORTION) in a way, euphonic or otherwise, that some people such as myself like. Their is nothing 'magical' with regard to either PP or SET. 'Magical' seems to simply be a rather generic description for the manner in which the signal becomes distorted from the time it enters the amplifier's mouth, travels through it's guts, and exits out the amplifier's.....er....output jacks. Paul: BE NICE! .....I know I have set myself up again, here! But go ahead if you must! I just don't worry about it enough to take any of it personally. If someone thinks I'm nuts 'cause I like SET amps, that's fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Mark: I wholeheartedly agree with you. One thing I really liked, noticed, etc. about my PP 6V6 amps (which are just little, decent sounding pp amps!),is that bass did not have the kind of longer tail-end (for lack of a better description) that both pair of SET amps I have seem to exhibit in comparison. Bass does not sound at all bad on the 2A3 amps, and seems to be influenced by what output tube is being used. In other words, bass with the PP amps has a very precise, stop-dead-in-its-tracks-when-it-should sort of quality that is really good for music with prominent bass. This is yet another reason why dividing amps up according to what frequency range they are best suited makes sense -- to me. Bi-amping or even tri-amping becomes more interesting the more I look at it. It's something I want to go about slowly, though, and the means is just not there to do that yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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