RF-7 Mini Review - Trey, are you listening?

[Dylanl]

Just my 2 cents. I own both RF7's & Klipschorns. I have tested both with SS & Tube amps and there is no comparison in mid range between the two. I mean not even close. I would like to try the newer crossovers for the RF7's to see if this would bring things closer. Since my Klipschorn purchase the RF7's have become movie speakers. I agree with the other posters that stated that Klipsch must have built this speaker to a price point. That is why I purchased them. I still believe "great bang for the buck" in comparison to what is out there.

[Deang]

Three-way horns sound like three-way horns, and two-ways sound like two-ways -- even when you put a horn on top. However, the RF-7 is one hell of a two-way. I do think the crossover mod brings the top down into better balance with the middle -- and makes the RF-7 a much better speaker for music. Still, it doesn't have the baffle size, or the ability to couple to a room like the Klipschorn. It's just a different kind of sound, but can be enjoyed every bit as much as listening to three-way horns.

[oldtimer]

"To sum it up, there ain't no seat in the entire concert hall that comes even close to sitting in the middle of the orchestra..."

Maybe, but then you wouldn't be a percussionist and how much fun could that be.....

[richinlr]

"Hi Rich,

I sure have not, but from what you describe it sounds like a killer amp, it should be in the same ballpark as the discrete component solid state units such as Marantz, Technics, older Pioneer, HK, Etc.... They all have that nice warm sound that sets them apart from the current solid state offerings What sort of equipment do you have as far as DVD player, CD player etc...?"

Before I start, some please tell me how to get part of a message reply indented with those dashed lines? Thanks

First a little word on the Electrocompaniet stuff. What separates Electro from the pack is its circuit design and the basis for that different design. If you have read any of the old "Dope from Hope" papers, PWK has one entitled "Otala Distortion" named after the Finnish guy who discovered TIM (Transient InterModulatory distortion) and even said that he was looking forward to more info on TIM because reduction in TIM looked very promising and just might explain the differences between tube and solid state. This distortion plagues solid state amps and is a result of the transistors switching on and off. His research into TIM indicated that TIM was at least 10 times as audible as the standard distortion. He recommended that solid state amps use a different circuit topology (that he designed) to reduce or eliminate TIM. Electrocompaniet was founded in 1972 create amplifiers based on Otala's ideas. And they consulted with Otala to establish their own unique circuit topology. From the first amp they built up to today, anyone who was/is lucky enough to hear one was/is pretty much blown away with the sound. I discovered Electro while living in Singapore in the early 80's. Like everybody else, I was blown away. In 1984, I purchased a pre and power combo and was made a convert forever. I currently own what might be called the third generation (circa late 80's - early 90's). The second set is much better than the first set and the first set was VERY good (though not very reliable due to class A operation with very high voltages).

Difficult to find a dealer in the U.S. with distributor support in the U.S. never being what it should be, it is difficult to get your hands on them. But, if you do manage to, I would bet that you won't look back and will become an Electrocompaniet die-hard as much as you are a Klipsch die-hard.

For more info (what there is), go here:

http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

They also make outstanding CD playback and digital equipment.

Back to your question regarding CD & DVD players, I am a mixed bag of cheap stuff here. Up until very recently, I was using a Musical Fidelity DAC (circa 1990) to convert a coax digital signal from a circa 1993 Philips CD changer. Since the Musical Fidelity conked out on me, I just run the Phillips analogue into my pre-amp. I have a circa 1998 JVC three disc DVD player that playes DVD remarkably well but cannot touch the old Philps CD player on CD's.

Since I do not have a modern good CD player, for serious listening, I still prefer my TT. As I say about my system - "If you start the evening with CD's you can easily switch to the TT later, on the other hand, if you start with the TT, you can't switch to CD's later"

Sorry for being so long winded but, hopefully, other members can start getting an idea of how I think and what I like. This knowledge helps all of us to better understand each other when we post.

I am not wedded to single ideas - show me something better and I will probably change my tune.

[richinlr]

"To the poster,I think you would find a big improvement on your set up vs Denon(nothing against Denon,I've owned several)."

Are you referring to me? The Denon stuff was at the dealer and NOT my stuff. I use Yamaha for HT but have my rig set up so that the Yamaha is totally isolated when I play two-channel music. Music requires as pure a chain as you can get. When playing music, my chain is:

TT or CD

Electrocompaniet pre-amp (this unit has only a volume and balance control)

Electrocompaniet power amp

ET LFT-VIII Speakers.

About as straight through as I can get - good recording sound great and bad recordings sound like c***... Pretty much speaks the truth.

[richinlr]

"Maybe, but then you wouldn't be a percussionist and how much fun could that be....."

Sorry, I was actually referring to the best seat in the house being ANYWHERE on the stage. The middle of the orchestra is only my perspective as a former flutist...

[picky]

richinlr: Thanks for taking the time to post such a complete analysis of your RF-7 Test experience. As an RF-7 owner, I always like to hear what others think about the equipment, both good and bad. In my case, I have my RF-7s connected to a Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi Receiver. The experience in my room differs from your account; there is slight mid-bass emphasis in the system and I thoroughly enjoy the sound in all cases, whether it be watching movies, or listening to music (male or female artists). Thanks again for your input.

[arj]

hi richinlr

Nice review..

I own a RF3II and understand about what you say about the midrange..especially when compared to a Spendor/quad.. But i am a bit surprised ath the difference..never felt it to be too bad, thiugh that is definitely not th strngth of a reference series. (Its strengths are the highs and the BASS. I still have not heard the triangles played as well in any other speaker save the Avant Garde Duos which of course are $$$$)

One reason for tyour disappointment could be the kind of amplification. Due to the high sensitivity , it is the first few watts (Or milliwatts) which make the difference. Even your EC amp, since it drives planar might not really have the kind of control required in that initial few watts. perhaps thats the reason why Tubes are the "Weapons of Choice" here !

I used to run these earlier first with a 80W onkyo (Pretty bad !) then a 50W NAD320 much better but not too good with Vocals. Now I have moved to a Sugden A21a - 25W Pure ClassA British Handbuilt amp..and the midrage is really really Good. I never really like female vocals before and now all that has changed

BTW the I have heard the Electrocompaniet EMC up cd player..ant that is on my Must have list..really smooth and very controlled. Handles dynamics with such Grace !

[richinlr]

"One reason for tyour disappointment could be the kind of amplification. Due to the high sensitivity , it is the first few watts (Or milliwatts) which make the difference. Even your EC amp, since it drives planar might not really have the kind of control required in that initial few watts. perhaps thats the reason why Tubes are the "Weapons of Choice" here !"

I think I need some one else to tell the story about EC amps.

Go to http://audioreview.com/Amplifiers/Electrocompaniet/PRD_124177_1583crx.aspx

2nd review down:

"This amp is everything I was looking for from a power source to drive my Talon Peregrines. Detail, delicacy and the ability to lift info from the music I love that I had been missing. Vocals are beautiful when recorded so. Acoustic guitar is really a treat. Steel strings resonate wonderfully and naturally with a decay that is near perfect. Nylon strings when plucked parially muted are breathtaking to behold. Drums are really dynamic and cymbals not only shine and again decay naturally, but their placement in the soundstage is dead-on. The power and delicacy are absolutley first rate. This amp does not sound like it's dying to explode like some of the behemoths do when playing softer music, but allow all the micro-dynamics to emerge naturally in their own time and place."

Power and delicacy are the key words here. While there read all of the reviews and try to find a bad one.

"BTW the I have heard the Electrocompaniet EMC up cd player..ant that is on my Must have list..really smooth and very controlled. Handles dynamics with such Grace !"

You just described my amp and preamp - need I say more?

[richinlr]

"I do think the crossover mod brings the top down into better balance with the middle -- and makes the RF-7 a much better speaker for music."

Did they bring the crossover point down? If so, what to? I know you have to be very careful with a high frequency horn when you get near Fc.

On the other hand, I would also think that for the size it could go a little lower (I don't EVEN want to go near the math that is probably needed for the Tractrix horn) and that just might have a significant impact on the midrange.

[leok]

The mod that Dean is refering to has 2 components. 1) a slight reduction in resistance in the tweeter shaping circuit which I felt, as stock, was not quite effectively flattening the tweeter's freq. response. 2) upgrade of the capacitors in the tweeter crossover section. I believe this change removed a lot of intermodulation cross products that were causing harshness and artificial expansion. The result is a much smoother high end that is much more natural sounding and a better dynamic match for the cones.

Leo

[richinlr]

Boy, has this generated some really interesting comments - I love discussions like this!

But, I think there may be some confusion going on. Please note that I have NOT heard the RF-7's in my house or through my EC amps. I have heard them only at the dealer through Denon electronics. My review really is a 'first impression' in that regard.

And after all the wonderful insight, the original question that was the crux of my original post remains pretty much unanswered:

"Now, after all this, can anybody offer an explanation of why the RB-25 STILL had better midrange with even cheaper Japanese electronics?"

[Deang]

The RF-25 has limited LF frequency response, going down to 45Hz. This means the tuning point is higher, and the cones are not reproducing near the amount of bass that the RF-7s are. Though the cones in the 25s are much smaller, the crossover point is near 2.7Khz. The 25s are also outfitted with the newer cones, which are a little stiffer. These things combined result in a overall reduction in cone movement, which lends itself to less harmonic and intermodulation distortion -- which in a two way -- improves midrange performance.

Plots generated at Klipsch on the modded RF-7 crossovers revealed a 1.5db reduction in output at 3.5Khz. I've been told on good authority that there is some ringing in that area, and the small reduction in output takes it to inaudibility. The plots didn't reveal any changes from the capacitor upgrades, which I wasn't surprised by -- since I believe the various testing methods have yet to cover the gammit of what the human ear and brain can pick up. In other words, the small reduction in output at 3.5Khz certainly cannot account for the audible improvements heard in every conceivable area of performance.

[NOSValves]

Dean,

That sounded so good I almost believe it

[richinlr]

Thanks. The little piece of info about the 25's having the newer cones goes a long way. I have been wondering if the inward shape and metal material of the newer dust caps doesn't play a far more important role than anyone realizes.

And like you, I don't believe that measuring has reached the point that it can take the place of ears. Most midrange signal material is just too complex a wave form to look at and figure out what is missing and what is not. Oh, you can probably tell in gross terms, but not at the subtle level that you need to be seeing. So back to the ears - well trained ears are still the best analyzer.

I believe as well that the mass of the 10 inch cone vs. the mass of the 25 cone plays a big part.

Also, since this post has generated so many comments and stimulated my thoughts on the issue, I am beginning to think that my original idea of putting the 25 woofers in a midranges is probably a poor idea. I said as much myself when I said that a cone midrange is ok only if very well executed. Recalling what I have learned along the way from experimentation, just about every attempt to do a cone midrange has problems of some sort.

WAF aside, maybe a good mid horn...

[Deang]

Yeah, I've been reading all of Kelly's old posts.

[3dzapper]

'Bout time you smartened up!!!!

Rick

[Deang]

Ha Ha.