radiob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 12:42:12 PM CAS wrote: ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:37:39 AM radiob wrote: ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:15:12 AM CAS wrote ---------------- Never seen any specific measurements on that sub configuration, however the specs don't read all that impressive. And the manufacturer's note that mentions 115dB at 20 Hz and roll off at 17? That sounds odd as well. With an exterior finish and soundcoat you'll spend around $900. Just as a comparison, the SVS PB2+ cost me $1,100 and included 2 active drivers, 900W rms amp, crossover, subsonic filter, and is a killer well below 17 Hz. Not trying to get into a peeing match. Just an observation. ---------------- It is hard for me to compare SVS To the VMPS subs because I havnt heard neither, however I do own a set of VMPS ST R/SE loudspeakers and the bass cabinet in them is supposed to be the larger subwoofer. I have never heard bass control that compares to the vmps loudspeakers. Brian Chenney of VMPS has won the CES audio show in Eroupe with best of show regardless of price in 2002 with his RM40 loudspeakers <4,000.00>, so he is very credible in my book. I looked into the SVS subs before I purchased my Paradigm servo 15 <$1,900+$300 x-30 crossover> I wish I had bought 2 VMPS larger subs and a used sunfire 300 two. THIS IS SVS "ULTRA SUB"When you hear a CS-Ultra package fired up you'll understand why we needed to enhance the design of our tried and true cylinder design. These are frightening subwoofers. Brutally powerful, yet subtle, accurate and natural sounding, the CS-Ultra package will astound you with bass, the likes of which few have ever heard...at any price. Expect twice the the performance of the standard twin 20-39PC package performance down low (a whopping 7.5dBs at 20Hz!). This is bass that doesn't just "hit" you. It pushes right through your body and keeps on going. Want to see the flat response we're talking about. --------- I TOOK THAT FROM THE SVS SIGHT, NOW LOOK AT THE 7.5 DB AT 20 HZ.THE vmps IS 115,AT 17 NOT 7.5 AT 20. NOTICE THE SVS IS USING THE SAME TYPE OF SPEC AS THE VMPS, HOWEVER THE SVS DOES NOT HAVE A SUB AVAILABLE THAT OUT PERFORMS THE VMPS MANUFACURES NOTE. THEY DO NOT HAVE A SUB WITH A ROLLOFF UNDER 20, SO HOW DOES YOURS GO SO LOW? ---------------- Sorry, you're quite misinformed. The phrase you quoted meant 7.5db ABOVE the lower model package for a total of (with the new driver) above 115 dB at 20 Hz. 7.5dB would be the measurement of a whisper. And the other spec you quoted was incorrect as the VMPS website specifically says 115db at 20Hz, not 17Hz. Also, you need to read the SVS website further as most of their subs can be user tuned to roll off at 25, 20 or 16 Hz for maximum SPL or depth. I get response down to 12Hz. And as far as not having a sub that can outperform both of these? The SVS Ultra cylinders, the PB2-Ultra, and especially the B4 (which is really in another class all together). ---------------- I am not miss informed on 7.5db, I simply copied the spec from SVS,and pasted it here. you may want to check your specs on the SVS stuff. Do you have any reveiws you can post on the SVS stuff? As for the B4 it is in a class with the Watt Puppy, Simply a ripoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 I was wondering what the svs tubes were made, I have been told cardboard, is that true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Of course! Didn't you know? Cardboard is THE best material to make a subwoofer out of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 What happens if your dog leaks on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcjago Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Every sub is coated with a super-special, anti-dog-piss solution before it leaves the factory, so now worries there. You can buy it from their website. It works great! You can use it on all the furniture in your house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 2:00:11 PM radiob wrote: ---------------- On 8/27/2004 12:42:12 PM CAS wrote: ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:37:39 AM radiob wrote: ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:15:12 AM CAS wrote ---------------- Never seen any specific measurements on that sub configuration, however the specs don't read all that impressive. And the manufacturer's note that mentions 115dB at 20 Hz and roll off at 17? That sounds odd as well. With an exterior finish and soundcoat you'll spend around $900. Just as a comparison, the SVS PB2+ cost me $1,100 and included 2 active drivers, 900W rms amp, crossover, subsonic filter, and is a killer well below 17 Hz. Not trying to get into a peeing match. Just an observation. ---------------- It is hard for me to compare SVS To the VMPS subs because I havnt heard neither, however I do own a set of VMPS ST R/SE loudspeakers and the bass cabinet in them is supposed to be the larger subwoofer. I have never heard bass control that compares to the vmps loudspeakers. Brian Chenney of VMPS has won the CES audio show in Eroupe with best of show regardless of price in 2002 with his RM40 loudspeakers <4,000.00>, so he is very credible in my book. I looked into the SVS subs before I purchased my Paradigm servo 15 <$1,900+$300 x-30 crossover> I wish I had bought 2 VMPS larger subs and a used sunfire 300 two. THIS IS SVS "ULTRA SUB"When you hear a CS-Ultra package fired up you'll understand why we needed to enhance the design of our tried and true cylinder design. These are frightening subwoofers. Brutally powerful, yet subtle, accurate and natural sounding, the CS-Ultra package will astound you with bass, the likes of which few have ever heard...at any price. Expect twice the the performance of the standard twin 20-39PC package performance down low (a whopping 7.5dBs at 20Hz!). This is bass that doesn't just "hit" you. It pushes right through your body and keeps on going. Want to see the flat response we're talking about. --------- I TOOK THAT FROM THE SVS SIGHT, NOW LOOK AT THE 7.5 DB AT 20 HZ.THE vmps IS 115,AT 17 NOT 7.5 AT 20. NOTICE THE SVS IS USING THE SAME TYPE OF SPEC AS THE VMPS, HOWEVER THE SVS DOES NOT HAVE A SUB AVAILABLE THAT OUT PERFORMS THE VMPS MANUFACURES NOTE. THEY DO NOT HAVE A SUB WITH A ROLLOFF UNDER 20, SO HOW DOES YOURS GO SO LOW? ---------------- Sorry, you're quite misinformed. The phrase you quoted meant 7.5db ABOVE the lower model package for a total of (with the new driver) above 115 dB at 20 Hz. 7.5dB would be the measurement of a whisper. And the other spec you quoted was incorrect as the VMPS website specifically says 115db at 20Hz, not 17Hz. Also, you need to read the SVS website further as most of their subs can be user tuned to roll off at 25, 20 or 16 Hz for maximum SPL or depth. I get response down to 12Hz. And as far as not having a sub that can outperform both of these? The SVS Ultra cylinders, the PB2-Ultra, and especially the B4 (which is really in another class all together). ---------------- I am not miss informed on 7.5db, I simply copied the spec from SVS,and pasted it here. you may want to check your specs on the SVS stuff. Do you have any reveiws you can post on the SVS stuff? As for the B4 it is in a class with the Watt Puppy, Simply a ripoff. ---------------- Is this guy kidding? I'm not sure. Read the FULL sentence. Straight from your quote: Expect twice the the performance of the standard twin 20-39PC package performance down low (a whopping 7.5dBs at 20Hz!) That means 7.5 dB ABOVE the output of the 20-39 package, which at that level translates to TWICE as loud. To comprehend complex sentences you need to read the whole sentence. Snap your fingers together. That's more than 7.5 total dB from zero. However a jump from 107 to 115 dB would be doubling. And my specs on the SVS stuff? They're 100% accurate as are my own response measurements from my SVS. And the B4 a ripoff? I have respect for all brands of reputable subs, but I think you have either not auditioned the subs you're speaking of or you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I know you want to feel good about the purchase you made of your own speakers, but to make such accusations is inappropriate. And yes, all cylinder subs are usually made of cardboard. Try one and you'll rethink your preconception. This isn't toilet paper roll. Do i have reviews of SVS subs? I think if you haven't seen the reviews of this company and it's subs on the internet yet then you will be in for a big surprise. I'd break forum rules by posting such. Let's have a more mature and factual conversation from this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 2:46:04 PM xcjago wrote: Every sub is coated with a super-special, anti-dog-piss solution before it leaves the factory, so now worries there. You can buy it from their website. It works great! You can use it on all the furniture in your house! ---------------- I spray it in my toilet to keep the bowl clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 9:41:44 AM NOSValves wrote: Some of these comments have me baffled ! John your saying a bass horn slows the bass down ? You would describe a Lascala as having slow bass ? Maybe I'm miss reading. The last thing I would describe Lascala bass as is slow. ---------------- I'm saying that horn loading a cone driver, slows the cone driver down. Transient behavior is a function, all things being equal, of frequency response. The higher in frequency a system is capable of going, the better is it's transient behavior. That is the physics. Putting it another way, high bandwidth is "fast", low bandwidth is "slow". Horn loading a direct radiator increases its efficiency at the expense of the drivers on-axis bandwidth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 10:07:09 AM TBrennan wrote: John---I understand your concerns. However I reached 25hz flat, in room, with my 4648s. Not bad. They were placed along a wall and had 6db of boost at 30hz from the Parts Connection plate-amp I used. This was measured with a RTA and a calibrated mic. Now I know it's supposed to be a no-no pushing vented boxes below tuning like that but as a practical matter, in a house, it worked very well. With four 15" drivers to share the work and the incredible, overbuilt quality of the 2226 drivers there was no distress evident at some VERY loud volumes. Given their high efficiency (over 100db for the pair) and dynamic capabilities they could track my A5s very well. Ahhh, but you knew they'd do that, you were wondering if they'd do the low-bass thing. ---------------- Tom- You achieved the goal by doing exactly what I stated earlier, very high volume velocity and lots of power. By having more than ample power capacity and stout drivers, a quad of 2226s will definitely get you there with EQ. I'm interested in doing the same thing with a single driver, with no EQ and still fill a large (very large) room with solid 20-35Hz information. I've ordered a McCauley 6174 for this very task. jw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 Well, the speed of sound is close-enough to being a constant at sea level, regardless of frequency. The determining factors are density (temp, pressure and humidity). The waveform (regardless of its respective length, i.e. frequency) still travels at the same speed, as determined by the temp, pressure and humidity. John is technically correct about horns being "slower". This is due to reactance at the throat to the cone movement and the drag-effect along the interior horn walls. But in the case of the La Scala/Belle, the 30" overall length horn walls are not "real" confining and although probably measurable I would not consider that it is much of a factor. The speed issue is more than likely a discussion of excursion, cone mass, area and suspension considerations, rather than being in a short exponential horn, in my estimation. The natural "damping" of the driver and enclosure, in other words. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 SVS, VMPS----who cares, it's just hi-fi stuff. REAL hornys are interested in stuff that says JBL, McCauley, Radian, ServoDrive, EV etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 2:34:57 PM xcjago wrote: Of course! Didn't you know? Cardboard is THE best material to make a subwoofer out of! ---------------- LOL Yes they are if your budget is foodstamp like.Any quality sub uses at least braced MDF or even sturdier composite materials.Only cheapo cabinets are made by cardboard,no matter what the maker claims they use cardboard because they cost next to nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 OK, so what do you sub gurus think the best sub to run with a LS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:07:58 PM Piranha wrote: OK, so what do you sub gurus think the best sub to run with a LS? ---------------- HT or music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 2-Channel of course. I only have two ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 RSW 12 or 15 of course. There are many others but I KNOW these will work well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 You really think an RSW-15 can keep up? I thought they (Klipsch) said only the dual THX Ultras could do the job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 The 12 keeps up with my corns with no sweat. I'm sure the 15 can easily top that. I know someone out there uses them together. I'm pretty sure Indy uses the 15 with his khorns and likes the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 ---------------- On 8/27/2004 11:07:58 PM Piranha wrote: OK, so what do you sub gurus think the best sub to run with a LS? ---------------- If neither budget nor size are limitations... a pair of Klipsch KW-120-THX subs would be high on my list as well as the Acoustic Visions Pinnacle. Both SVS and VMPS, so intensely argued about, produce nice prefinished units for a little less money. Remember that these are all large units.... The Klipsch RSW series compromises bass extension and efficiency for their relatively compact size, but are good quality units. Unfortunately budget and size are both factors for me... so I went the DIY route. BTW the McCauly 6174 driver John mentioned models really nicely. There is also Stryke, Adire, Blueprint, PartsExpress, etc... which offer interesting drivers at their respective price points. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 Piranhaman, TT Indyklipschfan, he went to Treys house and heard the new klipsch THX subs with klipsch amp-said he is buying them....IMO he knows his stuff, just ask him to sing for ya Of course the B4-plus with crown k2 would be Great, but overkill unless you have HT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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