need some improvement opinions

[steelie]

Hi all. I'm posting this on the 2-channel forum in hopes of getting some input on how certain improvements may affect my system.

I'm no newbie to this hobby but I'm far from an expert audiophile with a dream system. Still, I'm working up to a decent rig.

Anyway, a day ago I received my SVS sub and for kicks I kept the crossover set to 80 hz for music. I never liked doing that before but now, I can push my receiver much harder before I start hearing the strain/harshness and sybillating Ssss's from the RF7s.

So, my question is, how much will my system improve by getting only a separate amplifier to push the speakers and using the reciever as a processer? Will I lose most of the strain/harshness or will that happen only after I pick up a new pre-amp/processor?

I'm thinking down the road here but solid state is what I'm interested in, specifically because this system (really far down the road) eventually will be exlusively set for HT. My real 2-channel system hasn't even started to be built yet.

For now, though, music is still extremely important to me and I'd like to get the most out my system until that beautiful day in the future when I'll have a dedicated stereo and a dedicated HT.

[NOSValves]

Does the Denon have preamp outs ?

[D-MAN]

I am not a fan of Denon, so take this with a grain of salt...

The sibilance thing is thowing me... this only occurs when the sub is on?

It sounds like you are over-driving the amp - does it do it at lower volume also? If so, I would look for something with more power (and not Denon, but only my opinion).

DM

[steelie]

Sorry, I was trying to keep the post short. The long version is that I used to be a Denon fan and, unfortunately, I am no longer.

I upgraded to RF7s from a Synergy-based system about 8 or 9 months ago and I was all smiles for several months. I did keep the KSW 12, however, and never used it except for movies.

The past few months, I've noticed that when I push the SPLs I get a lot (perception of course) of harshness and an annoying sybillance in S sounds. Funny thing, I never noticed that before a few months ago. Maybe my enthusiasm for the RF7s was blinding my ears. Maybe I just got used to the sound.

The result is that yes, I've been listening at lower volumes to avoid the harshness.

Either way, when I got my new sub I decided to try it for music and cut the low frequencies at 80 hz, the lowest available on the Denon 2802. It's something I never did with the KSW-12 because, frankly, it just sounded boomy and it never did much for me when coupled with the RF7s. (I did enjoy it quite a bit with Synergy though)

Anyway, to cut to the chase, with the low frequency sent to the sub I can push the fronts to those same high SPLs and the harshness/sybillance is much reduced. It's still there but not nearly to the same levels.

The 2802 does have pre-outs and I know the upgrade path will require me to use it as a pre/pro. I'm just wondering what musical benefits I can expect from a better amp and whether that will get rid of the sybillance or whether the pre-amp will have to do the trick.

Thanks for the replies.

[NOSValves]

I'm not sure if the problem is in the preamp section or the amplifier section. There must be someone that has ran into this problem with the same combo. Have you tried over in the HT section ?

Craig

[D-MAN]

I think that what you are hearing is typical of most Japanese SS consumer audio gear...(I am really not a fan!).

If you gotta go Japanese, go Yamaha.

I am sounding like a broken record here...

I dumped my Denon for a much cheaper Yamaha and never looked back. My 2cents (which isn't worth a penny)!

DM

[greg928gts]

In my opinion, the sooner you can get your music listening over to a dedicated 2-channel system the better.

HT receivers are just not designed the same way as a high-end preamp or amplifier.

What you're hearing is probably a combination of things, like mediocre electronics, speakers that are very revealing, and possible source related issues.

Don't overlook the fact that your perception of what sounds good is probably getting sharper as your experiences grow. I know mine has, and my equipment has had to change dramatically to keep up.

Greg

[steelie]

Thanks for the opinions. I'm getting the impression you all don't feel investing the bigger bucks in the HT is the way to go. That's fine but the HT still needs some work to get to the point where I'm happy with it so I might as well try to make it the best 2-channel system I can in the meantime.

My music system is barely a seed in my mind and it's already more expensive than I care to think ... so I think it will be a while before I can move on.

Thanks again for the thoughts.

As an aside, does anyone have any thoughts about McIntosh's MC206. It's 125 watts of McIntosh power into 8 ohms but it is missing the autoformers available in their other amps. I've seen fairly decent deals on used models, although still more expensive than many other options. How would this work as a compromise for HT and 2-channel as I work my way up to a dedicated system?

[edwinr]

----------------

On 9/1/2004 5:02:50 PM D-MAN wrote:

I think that what you are hearing is typical of most Japanese SS consumer audio gear...(I am really not a fan!).

If you gotta go Japanese, go Yamaha.

----------------

I'm not familiar with that particular Denon model. But D-Man's suggestion to go Yamaha is a good one if that is going to be your primary HT setup. I don't think throwing in a separate power amp, using the Denon as a pre is a sensible way to go. If you already had the Yamaha I'd yes. In my opinion, Yamaha's pre-amp sections are far superior to competing models from other manufacturers. In my recent experience in auditioning various bits of Yamaha mid priced gear like the RXV-1400 receiver, 110 watts per channel, THX certified, includes inbuilt room correction system using a microphone - I have been most impressed. Very smooth sound which should compliment your Klipsch speakers, and power aplenty.

Once you have absorbed the cost of the Yamaha, then seriously consider, adding a separate power amp for your front channels. Why not consider a 2000 series Aragon 2 channel power amp - 200 watts per channel and minimalist circuitry. Should patch into the Yamaha's pre-outs perfectly. Don't scrimp on your current system. It's all you've got. Why not , in fact, make this your music and HT system. It's more cost effective. Having a separate music and HT setup just reduces the amount of money you can spend on quality gear. If you look far enough ahead, you won't waste any silly money like I did on stuff I shouldn't have bought. Later on down the track, you could upgrade your main speakers for something more upmarket in the Klipsch lineup - keeping your surrounds and centre and sub.

Other products you could audition would be in the new Harmon Kardon range. I only had a very brief listen to some of the mid-priced stuff. Sounded pretty good, but that wasn't through Klipsch speakers. So you will have to listen yourself.

[Deang]

"...when I push the SPLs I get a lot...of harshness and an annoying sybillance in S sounds. Funny thing, I never noticed that before a few months ago. Maybe my enthusiasm for the RF7s was blinding my ears. Maybe I just got used to the sound...The result is that yes, I've been listening at lower volumes to avoid the harshness....with the low frequency sent to the sub I can push the fronts to those same high SPLs and the harshness/sybillance is much reduced. It's still there but not nearly to the same levels."

I think as time passed, you became more aware of the deficiencies in your sound. It's normal, and happens to all of us. Those cones are light, rigid, and very responsive -- extremely dynamic. The downside is since they are metal, they ring a bit. This is why you notice it mostly with high SPLs. Using a sub reduced the effect because you off-loaded the low frequencies, and the since the cones aren't doing much bass, and moving as much as they were -- the midrange is cleaner. One of the biggest advantages of using a sub with two-ways is the improvement it brings to the midrange. However, with the RF-7 -- you need a VERY good sub.

Without question, upgrading the gear will bring substantial improvement in all areas -- but it is expensive. If it were me, I believe I would begin with the preamp/processor, and pick up an older 200 watter to power the mains. Buy your gear used at

www.audiogon.com

, and stay the hell away from eBay.

Now, there is something else you might try before you start throwing all that money at the "problem" -- but I ain't saying it, oh no I'm not.

You might post your concerns on the HT forum.

[edwinr]

----------------

On 9/1/2004 11:53:41 PM DeanG wrote:

Now, there is something else you might try before you start throwing all that money at the "problem" -- but I ain't saying it, oh no I'm not.

You might post your concerns on the HT forum.

----------------

Dean. You need to say it! Go on..... Seriously, I'm hangin' here...

Steelie, Dean's advice is good. I'm also wondering about the merits of you throwing money at your setup without a clear direction where you're going. Have a deep, deep think, and when Dean comes back at us, be guided by his words of wisdom. In regard to system upgrade, there's always more than one way to skin a cat (sorry clueless - no offence intended)!

EDIT:

Okay, I'll tell you, steelie. Go to the search button top right hand side. Enter 'RF7 Crossovers' then select in the results section "DeanG's RF7 crossovers...A review" and that will put you onto this interesting thread. Good luck.

[maxg]

The only HT system I ever heard that played a good 2 channel as well as the HT bit was from the good folks at Primare (www.primare.net).

Their stuff is not cheap - and I dont even know if it is available in the US - but if you can find it you will discover it is a worthwhile upgrade from the Denon's and Yamaha's of this world.

Their 100 wpc integrated unit seems to drive the KLF 30 fine (so well in fact that testing their 200-250 WPC power amp and separate pre-amp showed no discernable improvement).

I guess the KLF 30 is a harder load to drive than the RF7 - but that is a guess.

Just remember to put the unit into bypass mode for stereo listening, rather than in Stereo mode.

[dougdrake]

If you're considering boosting the power to the mains with a separate amp, also consider the Acurus 200x3. It'll run you, used, between $400 and $500. That will give you identical amplification to all 3 front channels, which I think would be good in a HT setting.

[steelie]

Thanks for all the tips. I'll check out Audiogon and maybe consider Dean's crossovers one day.

I'll try over on the HT side as well.

[Audio Flynn]

The past few months, I've noticed that when I push the SPLs I get a lot (perception of course) of harshness and an annoying sybillance in S sounds.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You are experiencing what causes many of us to own many amps or trade up so very often.

Between HT and 2 channel and stereos in the kids rooms I have 8 I think.

4 of my 2 channel amps sound better than my Sherwood Newcastle 9080 HT separates for music.

Receivers are great for HT; weak for music; unless you get a B&K perhaps.

[marksdad]

yup i was going to mention the b&k, mine has sheer power and dynamics no matter what i have running downstream

[leok]

If your subwoofer has a crossover that keeps low frequencies with the sub and sends only material above 80Hz to the mains, it could be the Dennon is simply handling a lighter load and is doing better. I do a similar thing with a 3.5Watt SET and the RF-7s in order to handle music with lots of bass (full orchestra, pipe organ, some pop .. ). Otherwise my SET gets overloaded with the bass. Maybe something similar is happening in your case. Sibilances will become smeared when an amp begins to clip. I wouldn't think you're clipping the Dennon, but maybe something's giving out a high levels and the sub reduces the load.

Leo