Snap, Crackle, Pop

[sunnysal]

and best of all rain doesn't stick to artto's records! lol.

my answer to snap crackle and pop has been to invest exclusively in CDs, I still have about 400 LP albums in my collection but all new content I buy is CDs (up to about 800 now and don't forget my DVDs...up to about 300 of those..lol), et voila! no snap crackle and pop.

Perhaps it would be better to buy SACDs but I have settled on "perfect sound forver" as good enough for me.

Warm regards, tony

[thebes]

Wow! These are all great repleis guys, couldn't begin to aknowledge all of them.

At this point I envision lp's as a cheap way to build up a collection. Buying used I can get 100 lp's for the price of 5 cd's, and even if a certain amount of them are clunkers I'm still way ahead of the game.

It's clear some upfront expenditures are in order, however, arto's treating solution and mayhaps vodka, Leo's record cleaner, new sleeves and probably upgrade the cartridge via the Shure trade-in fini mentioned in my TT Newbie thread. (By the way I suspect every member of this board belongs to the Chamber of Commerce-your solution to almost everything is to spend more money!)

A couple of questions remain, though:

How does one tell when a cartridge and/or needle is going bad?

Tracking and anti-skating on my TT for the Shure V15 type 3 are both currently set at 1.5. The Shure website does not have the instructions for this type of cartridge so do these settings sound right to you?

Is there some sort of list available online that I could use in hunting down old lps?

On most of the lps the greatest amound of noise is on the first track. Is that normal?

By the way the TT tonearm and cart are level, cartridge alignment is spot on, and the new rack I just built is also perfectly level (see FleXy Table thread in Updates and Mods for a picture!).

I know some of what I raised in this thread has been previously posted on the Foruim, but after a thorough search, I still had questions, hence the post. I think I may not be the only one here new to, or getting back into, lps so I think it also serves an instructive purpose. Your responses couldn't be better on both accounts.

[lynnm]

Couple of points:

1.) Shure's recommended tracking force is 1.0-1.25 gram. I have found during many years of use that a tracking weight of 1.5 grams is preferable.

2.) I have heard the argument that alcohol somehow leaches lubricants out of vinyl and don't buy it.In any event the suggestion of using Vodka in preference to Isopropyl because Vodka is purer does not hold water. Isopropyl is 99% pure ethyl alcohol while Vodka is 40% alcohol and the balance is water and other chemicals.

The argument that Vodka is somehow safer because it is consumable is mistaken simply because if one consumes a sufficiently large quantity of Vodka they will be as dead as if they had consumed a sufficient quantity of Isopropyl alcohol.

3.) I will concede that Rubbing alcohol should never be used in record cleaning simply because it generally is comprised of 70% Isopropyl alcohol and 25-30% lubricating oils which would be deposited in the grooves.

[artto]

Just because isopropyl alcohol is 99% pure alcohol doesnt mean it doesnt have impurities in it that are left behind on vinyl surface. The Smirnoff Silver thing has nothing to do with being able to consume it. It has to do with its purity in that its been distilled so many times Isopropyl is simply not as refined.

In any event, I dont recommend using Smirnoff (or isopropyl) for routine record cleaning. I use it just for cleaning records Ive acquired that were not handled properly or have some crud on them since things like Discwasher dont always do the trick.

[Thoriated_Tiger]

TT and cart can do wonders.

I had a Technics SL1200 with stock arm and a Grado Black.. rice krispy city.

Then I got my thorens 145 (the bearing on the 1200 is the diameter of a wood pencil, the bearing on the Thorens is the diameter of a cigar), with the same Grado.. it was cleaner.

THen I put on the Audio-Technica AT440ML -- it's a microline stylus, rides deeper in the groove as opposed to an 'elliptical' -- below the surface noise. Things got a LOT quieter, good records barely have any noise at all.

Then I got a Record Doctor II vacuum. Good records now sound almost like tape. Just the tape hiss, and the occasional tic.

Bad records with the microline also pop differently. More like a scrape. *shrug*

[djk]

"On most of the lps the greatest amound of noise is on the first track. Is that normal?"

Yes.

It usually indicates having been cleaned with a Discwasher, and then played right away.

Once an album is played wet it will be noisey when played dry.

Get a G (conical) stylus for your V 15 III, try it on every album and make notes as to which sound best with what.

Amplifiers with no feedback sound better on tics and pops. Feedback is like a hall of mirrors, those high frequency tics and pops take forever to die down.

Tics and pops are easy for your brain to ignore in a no feedback system as they seem to be in a different 'plane' from the music, and they are not spread out in time from the mirror effect.

[fini]

djk,

You are blowing my mind with your post, so early in the morning, too!

Is the "wet-play wear" bit a universally accepted truth? I have a friend (remember our buddy C&S?), who occasionally will play a disc wet on purpose, to cut down on the surface noise on really bad (but extremely rare) discs.

I didn't know there were options for styli with the V15-III cartridge. I know that Shure is substituting the type IV stylus for the III cartridges. Where do you get "G" styli? Sorry if that's a stupid question...

[Audio Flynn]

Mark;

WOW

I really like the vinyl playback in about 4 vintage phoine sections I have heard in the past 2 years.

A few vintage were really horrid.

Implied in your comment is the excellent nuetrality I percieve in the Blueberry.

Best LP playback I have heard: Blueberry plus standard set up MMF 7 turnatable

Of couse in Detroit no stores demo LP playback very well.

Aarto;

A supplement to your record cleaning.

In practice and theroy the carbon fiber grounded dry brush is invaluable and most likely the best deal in all of audio.

Since my return to vinyl I have had no desire to buy a Zerostat to eliminate static.

I just brush and "ground it out".

[artto]

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On 9/25/2004 7:07:45 AM djk wrote:

Get a G (conical) stylus for your V 15 III, try it on every album and make notes as to which sound best with what.

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I've also used a Decca Maroon pickup over the years which has a conical stylus. And yes, surface noise is certainly not as apparent. A conical stylus also has the benefit of not being "twisted" in the groove when used with a pivoting pickup arm as eliptical and various "mirco-ridge" designs that supposedly "fit" the groove wall will as the angle changes as the arm swings across the record. I guess you could say its not as sensitive to tracking error.

Rick...is this what you're looking for with the Shure V15 conical stylus? http://www.shure.com/phono/v15vxmr.html at the bottom of the page......Accessory Stylus

For wide groove / 78 RPM recordings N78S

[djk]

"I didn't know there were options for styli with the V15-III cartridge. I know that Shure is substituting the type IV stylus for the III cartridges. Where do you get "G" styli?"

V15 III Series (elliptical)

VN35MR (mirco ridge, or hyper elliptical)

V15 III-G (conical)

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VN35MR

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Yes

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V15 III-HE

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VN35HE

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VN35MR

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Yes

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V15 IV Series

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VN45HE

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VN45MR

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V15 IV-G

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VN4G

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VN45MR

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V15 IV-MR

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VN45MR

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Looks like the only one Sure offers for the type III is the VN35E

The M44 is still available in elliptical or conical. The M44-7 may be described as having big bass, while the M44G is more detailed.

"Rick...is this what you're looking for with the Shure V15 conical stylus? "

The M78S will fit V15 series and is a 2.5 mill conical for 78s only.

"Is the "wet-play wear" bit a universally accepted truth? I have a friend (remember our buddy C&S?), who occasionally will play a disc wet on purpose, to cut down on the surface noise on really bad (but extremely rare) discs."

That is all fine and good, but once played wet they will always need to be played wet.

You will also need to re-set your anti-skating control, Thorens tonearms have scale settings for both wet and dry use.

"How does one tell when a cartridge and/or needle is going bad?"

When the stylus is worn it picks up more noise, cartridge generally works or not.

Clean the stylus and examine under a microscope. A good stylus will look like two polished grains of rice at an angle with a space between the tips. A worn stylus will look like two Doritos with less space between the tips. A completely shot stylus will look like two triangles that meet at the tips. Playing an LP even once with a shot stylus will ruin the LP.

"Tracking and anti-skating on my TT for the Shure V15 type 3 are both currently set at 1.5. The Shure website does not have the instructions for this type of cartridge so do these settings sound right to you?"

That's fine for a type III. More grove damage is done by light, mis-tracking carts, than heavy tracking forces.

Turn off the speakers and listen to the needle-talk. The louder this is the worse the cartridge is tracking.

Some albums are recorded really 'hot', they need more tracking force. Remember, more grove damage is done by light, mis-tracking carts, than heavy tracking forces. One pass while mistracking can damage the recording more than playing 50X with more force.

Wet is the last resort, mark all LPs played wet.

If your arm has adjustable VTA, mark the LP with the best setting, same for tracking force.

[dgb]

I have the Spin Clean record thingy as well. It does a nice job, but Rice Crispies are almost unavoidable with used records as they were usually abused to a certain degree. However a decent rig and a good brushing will usually render the Krispies inaudable when the music starts. Also there are so many variations in vinyl recording, vinyl quality and previous abuse that you just can't address all of it. I have flimsy 80s records that sound better than big thick 70s records, "audiophile" records that sound like crap, and records that just refuse to "be clean".

Somthing I have noticed is that records that are dull after a cleaning sound worse than the "rainbow" vinyl, if you know what I mean. I wonder if that has somthing to do with using rubbing alcohol?

But records are still enjoyable for me, especially for the artwork. Unfortunately good used vinyl is ridiculously expensive where I live, so I usually just dig through the bargain bins. I've been underwhelmed by a lot of the new vinyl being produced and have pretty much given that up. Especially with this new Philips 963SA SACD. It blows the doors off of any source I've ever had. Vinyl does have a bigger sound than most CD players I've heard, but that isn't the case with this little bargain-gem, and the bass is chest thumping.

I have started scarfing up used tapes. I got a hold of a top of the line Yamaha deck for cheap (HX Pro, Dolby S, auto calibration, etc), a box of 50 blank Sony tapes ($2.50!) and have been recording tons of stuff from my own collection and from our local library. A lot of the mid 80-90s prerecorded tapes sound amazingly good. I had stopped buying tapes... well, I never really bought tapes, so I had no idea the sonic fidelity they managed to squeeze out of them just before they bit the dust. Will save up for a Dragon for playback since it's playhead automatically corrects for azimuth problems, seeing as I have tapes from four of my own machines and god knows how many traders decks over the years. Plus Dragons look way cool and I've always wanted one. So if you have any old tapes you want to unload (cheap let me know.

Wow, what a ramble...

[lynnm]

A point of clarification. I have used Isopropyl alcohol in DIY cleaning fluids in the past but no longer do so simply because the recommended fluid available for my Spin Clean is very cost effective and also should I decide to clean a bunch of old 78s I have the Spin Clean formula is safe for them. The Spin Clean formula does not contain alcohol

Anyone who wants to clean 78s needs to be aware that all but the very latest are shellac based and alcohol of whatever variety will ruin them. A possible exception may be the old thick Edisons which I believe were a different formulation but I certainly wouldn't risk using alcohol on them either.