D-MAN Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Been there, done that. I've found that listening to small speakers makes me listen to small music. Little, delicate cones means little, delicate music whose soundstage fits on my desk... That is, full orchestra, pipe-organ and choir is out, small jazz combo, or chamber music, or violin solo is in. Rock - forget it. It ain't pretty. Now, BIG speakers means BIG MUSIC... and dammit - SIZE DOES MATTER! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 I am getting tired of the muss and the fuss. All-nighters moving furniture and speakers around; playing test tones; measuring...it's a sickness, and I can't afford it anymore. I just wanna hear the music. I think I'm gonna convert my sonics-challenged music room to a pure home-theater room. And then set up a nice, simple 2-channel rig in the family room. It is definitely a better sounding room, anyway. It's dimensions are 15x22x8.67, compared to 16x18.5x8.67 for the old music room. Plus, it opens up on one corner to the rest of the basement and to the stairs, which seems to unconstipate the sound. Downside, the big horns just won't work in there. Shoot, I think I'm just getting tired of looking at big speakers. If I could get $4500 for the k-horns, belle and two heresy II's, they're gone. Sub-Sat land, here I come! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 is that an offer to sell? lol tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Well, BEEN THERE, DONE THAT... took 20 years, but came back to BIG. Bose has a complete line up that might be just the ticket that you're looking for... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 6, 2004 Author Share Posted October 6, 2004 I may need an intervention, but I don't need no stinking Bose Cubes!!! I am stuck in audiophile hell. Years of working toward a system goal (5.0 heritage); planning a dedicated room for music; achieving it all and discovering there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I sometimes think I don't actually enjoy the music a bit more now than I did as a 16 year-old, in MY room at night listening to Brian Wilson sing "In My Room" over a Realistic Clarinet 85 all-in-one stereo. Arghhhh!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 O.K., I know everyone is sick of hearing this, but this is killing me. If you wouldn't mind telling me, I'd like to know what year your Klipschorns are, and what networks you are running. I'd also like to say that you are never going to get anywhere near the performance a pair of Klipschorns are capable of using a mass market HT receiver. That sound is bound to be etched and thin -- accompanied by the ever collapsing soundstage. You should keep things as they are, and start working towards separates. That, or scrap the HT, and go with a set of Craig's 60 wpc, KT-88 based push-pull tube monoblocks and a nice tubed preamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I would like to second Dean, the HT reciever is nice but it is not even close to my tube driven rig. The difference in sound is like day and night. I wonder if the fact that I could buy 9 of the HT recievers for the origonal new cost (I bought used so it was a LOT less) of my tube preamp and amp has anything to do with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 I just don't wanna start down that road (tubes). Three kids in school, a mortgage, etc, etc. I've listed everything on Ebay. I'm over the edge; falling onto the rocks and waves crashing below... ...as I was saying - ebay: heresy II's at auction, belle for $1250 fixed, and pair of k-horns for $3000 fixed. We'll see. It's a combination of things, really: Finances, not really a good room for the k-horns, AND an unwillingness to go all the way with what may be the proper care and feeding of the big ol' horns. I'm just not a tube guy. I don't want to spend the money or have the hassle. I will probably regret this sooner rather than later, but I really need to do it anyway. Downsizing. That is the new mode of operation for audio endeavors around here now. I'm looking at high-value speakers with high adaptability designs. You know, small footprint floorstanders, or bookshelfs with a sub. My short list: klipsch RB75, RC7, RF5 Polk RTi12, RTi10, LSi9 ADS HT400LCR ...and whatever anyone may care to recommend that is available here in the midwest or on the 'net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 ---------------- On 10/7/2004 3:49:22 PM jdm56 wrote: klipsch RB75, RC7, RF5 Polk RTi12, RTi10, LSi9 ADS HT400LCR ---------------- Unfortunately, I find no problems with the above list, although I can't imagine giving up Khorns for any of those...nor would I be happy with them afterwards. You don't need to go "tube" gear-wise to get a better sound, but you do need to go with some quality, that is, not cheap Japanese consumer "gear" (ok, it really starts with an "s" but I was trying to be nice). Before you actually bite the bullet, I would recommend a listen to McIntosh or Classe, Krell, ARC, or Sunfire gear (all SS, btw). No care or feeding required. Just good source material. Buy used to save money - you probably won't need a warranty with this stuff. It'll probably outlive all of us. But to kiss goodbye to a full set of horns is a mistake, IMO. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 Dean, My k-horns are from '98, with the AK-3 crossover network. I really think the problem is mostly the acoustics of my available rooms. The family room does have potential, but I would have to do false corners, then probably set the speakers up on the short wall. The room is 15X22, but the long wall is not an option. The only other possibility in there is to fire across one end of the long dimension. This too would necessitate false corners. But that could be done pretty cheaply, I suppose. The false corner approach might even work in the room they are currently in. I just don't know if I could live with the looks of that... D-Man, You make some good points. That is my main fear about parting with the corner-horns; that I would eventually break both legs kicking myself in the arse over the whole affair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 JD, I am a bit confused. I thought this all started because you listened to the Heresies and loved the sound. If so - why get rid of them? If it is a lack of bass problem (which you havent mentioned but is a common complaint) the addition of a sub to your current setup (with the Heresies) would potentially solve all your problems and be a lot less hassle. I cant help feeling that you are in something of a panic and are making decisions you are going to regret later. Is there some reason you are in such a rush to get this sorted out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 8, 2004 Author Share Posted October 8, 2004 You are correct. It is the lack of bass in the heresys that puts me off of them. Geez, maybe that is why they had such clarity - the lack of bass will give that impression. In fact, after I measured them in my HT room, I could not believe how shelved down the whole woofer range was I'm talking 15-20dB below the 1khz level. Maybe my meter is goofy, but it did sound way down. Is this normal for heresys? With an 80dB output at 1000hz, 200 hz was down 16dB. The entire bass decade was down in that range. Oy! I am not really panicked so much as just...frustrated and tired of fighting this room with these speakers. Bass shy speakers in a bass-challenged room - not a good combo. They did sound great with even my cheap sub, though. But a woofer level that far below the mid just ain't a good thing. How in the heck did klipsch ever come up with that 63-20000hz +/- 3 dB rating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 It's your choice jdm36 in the end. If the speakers really don't suit your situation at the moment, then you need to part company with them. It's a simple as that. After all, if your situation changes, you can always buy back into the 'big' speaker market at a later stage. I don't think it's any good trying to retain hi-fi equipment when your hearts not in it. I think the RB-75's are a great loudspeaker and there is very little on the market that can compete. Everytime I've heard them, I've been amazed at the sound. Matched with a high quality subwoofer, these speakers would be genuinely scary. You could build a great surround system around these speakers that just might give your enthusiasm for hi-fi the kick start it needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 "With an 80dB output at 1000hz, 200 hz was down 16dB" Now that is an amazing result - I would call your meter a liar flat out - but if you are hearing such a dip as well this must be the room from hell, or your amp has some serious issues to address. If it is the room, 2 words - BASS TRAPS. I dont think it matters what speakers you use in a room like this - short of headphones. Most people get Heresies to go down to the low 60's without too much trouble. In a good room and with a nice amp behind them I have seen 47 Hz @ -6 dB (approx - limitations of the Radioshack meter). With such a hole as high as 200 Hz most subs will not be of much use anyway. Few subs go much above 150 Hz and 150 to 200 is a rather important range to be missing. You said something about having another room to try out. I would suggest (and I know you are bored of this) dragging the Heresies in there and trying them out. You might then hear them play bass!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 8, 2004 Author Share Posted October 8, 2004 "The room from hell" That's about the size of it, alright. Those numbers I gave you might be at least partially explained by the these facts: The heresys were on 30" stands; they were about two feet from the front wall, and about 6 feet from the sidewalls; I was sitting and measuring from smack in the middle of the room's long dimension; and, the short dimension is almost exactly twice the room's height, due to the little niche I ignorantly built into the front wall. See, without that, the rooms dimensions don't look to bad on paper - 16x18.5x8.67. But that danged niche, besides being a close approximation of a concave, or parabolic(?) surface, that I am sitting right in front of, creates a very nasty confluence of room dimensions - 17.5x18.5x8.67. See what I mean? Is it any wonder my bass response curve looks like a roller-coaster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strabo Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 ---------------- On 10/8/2004 10:35:44 AM jdm56 wrote: "The room from hell" That's about the size of it, alright. Those numbers I gave you might be at least partially explained by the these facts: The heresys were on 30" stands; they were about two feet from the front wall, and about 6 feet from the sidewalls ---------------- I don't know the whole story, but have you tried taking them off the stands and putting them closer to the back wall? I don't know why, but when I briefly listened to a pair that were on stands vs off stands (but tilted up) it made a huge difference to the bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 8, 2004 Author Share Posted October 8, 2004 I'm sure that would help the bass, but I have an aversion to short speakers. I don't know if it's really an audible thing, or if it's just my personal audiophile neurosis, but I like mids and tweets up 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 feet off the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 ---------------- On 10/5/2004 12:02:20 PM mark1101 wrote: One of the things I do now and then to "refresh" things is to move the system, interchange equipment/speakers, rearrange the room. This always injects a freshness of sorts. Makes retuning necessary, forces new interaction. Some nights as we all know we have the absolute best system we've ever owned, then without anything changing it could be terrible on a given night sometime later. Just refresh your system with some rearranging and learn to enjoy it all over again. By the way, does anyone know if Klipsch ever made headphones? Sounds like a neat idea if not a bit canabalistic. ---------------- Well put Mark, this is the experience I was having in my new home. Just COULDN"t get the placement of HT elements to sound and look good. So I unplugged everything and left a $1000 Yamaha RXV2400 set sealed in box for about three weeks. Listened to tv sound and smaller systems around house. Then I had a revelation about room placement. Hooked it all up again, and VOILA- I'm in love all over again. It's not perfect yet by a long shot, but a break was nice. I always enjoy a new room, but then you get used to the acoustics and start hearing those darned voices again..... Michael Well put Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 That speaker position will give you almost as poor of bass response via room loading as suspending them in the center of the space. Try coupling to one wall at a time and check your bass response. First back against the wall (half sphere) then against the wall, on floor (quarter sphere), then although it may not be astetically pleasing or the best imaging, just for fun, put em dead in the corners (eighth sphere) Then make 2-4" adjustments. Sorry about room size, listener position and bass traps are key here. I suggest you consult Artto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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