jdm56 Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 On a whim the other day, I pulled my heresy II's out of the rear corners of my music room, where they do surround duty, and set them up in the family room, about four feet from the rear wall and well away from the sidewalls. I had them on 30" stands, about 7 feet apart and I sat about 8 feet from them - not exactly near-field, but pretty darn close when you are used to listening to k-horns from about 14 feet. The first thing I put on was Nanci Griffith's "Other Voices, Other Rooms" which if you are not familiar with it, I would describe as acoustic folk music. I was mesmerized! I could not believe the dimensionality and clarity. I could hear way into the recording. Detail and space abounded! This was one of those experiences that we have all had, where you can't stop listening. You just keep dragging out more music, like you are listening to it for the first time. Now this brings me to the problem. I feel like everything I had come to accept about music reproduction, and have pursued over the last few years is now in a shambles. Ever since we built our house, I have been trying to put together a killer multi-channel music rig for the supposed emergence of SACD and DVD-Audio (H/T was always secondary). Well, you all know the sorry non-state of hi-rez multi-channel in the marketplace, and now, I'm thinking the only thing wrong with a corner-horn is that you have to put it in the corner! Klipschorns are amazing, but I think there is a lot of truth in the rap that "they don't image". Sure you get left, center and right, but I am talking about the magic, the three-dimensionality that small speakers, out away from room boundaries do so well. I mean I was being pulled into the music, involved, in ways I think I had forgotten about. I rediscovered why I first became a music-loving audio dork! To address the problem, I set about to re-configure my music room. First up, I moved the futon away from the back wall, and closer to the axis of the horns. This has restored much sparkle and detail, at the sacrifice of decent bass below 80hz. Subwoof??? Now I must tackle room acoustics again. This room is too reverberant, hiding too much detail in the music. But still the depth of image problem remains, and I want that three-dimensional magic!!! The only cure for this would probably involve false corners, so I could get the horns out of the corners, but my goodnes, a k-horn out of it's corner looks like a boat out of water; or at least in our smallish rooms. Suggestions? Hints? A sharp rap across the forehead with a rolled-up Kansas City Star? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Some disagree, but this is the way I fly. It's ALL image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I modded the top hat by adding a 2x2 piece of solid oak underneath, and bolted the sides to the K-horn. I then drilled holes, and ran threaded steel rods through the dead space in the back between the bass bin and the tailboard. It's rigid as Hell and it rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 It looks a little unsettling at first, but you get used to it. Doesn't matter, the sound is glorious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 So what is the OSB box with CD's on top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 ---------------- On 10/4/2004 9:31:19 PM jdm56 wrote: On a whim the other day, I pulled my heresy II's out of the rear corners of my music room, where they do surround duty, and set them up in the family room, about four feet from the rear wall and well away from the sidewalls. I had them on 30" stands, about 7 feet apart and I sat about 8 feet from them - not exactly near-field, but pretty darn close when you are used to listening to k-horns from about 14 feet. The first thing I put on was Nanci Griffith's "Other Voices, Other Rooms" which if you are not familiar with it, I would describe as acoustic folk music. I was mesmerized! I could not believe the dimensionality and clarity. I could hear way into the recording. Detail and space abounded! This was one of those experiences that we have all had, where you can't stop listening. You just keep dragging out more music, like you are listening to it for the first time. Now this brings me to the problem. I feel like everything I had come to accept about music reproduction, and have pursued over the last few years is now in a shambles. Ever since we built our house, I have been trying to put together a killer multi-channel music rig for the supposed emergence of SACD and DVD-Audio (H/T was always secondary). Well, you all know the sorry non-state of hi-rez multi-channel in the marketplace, and now, I'm thinking the only thing wrong with a corner-horn is that you have to put it in the corner! Klipschorns are amazing, but I think there is a lot of truth in the rap that "they don't image". Sure you get left, center and right, but I am talking about the magic, the three-dimensionality that small speakers, out away from room boundaries do so well. I mean I was being pulled into the music, involved, in ways I think I had forgotten about. I rediscovered why I first became a music-loving audio dork! To address the problem, I set about to re-configure my music room. First up, I moved the futon away from the back wall, and closer to the axis of the horns. This has restored much sparkle and detail, at the sacrifice of decent bass below 80hz. Subwoof??? Now I must tackle room acoustics again. This room is too reverberant, hiding too much detail in the music. But still the depth of image problem remains, and I want that three-dimensional magic!!! The only cure for this would probably involve false corners, so I could get the horns out of the corners, but my goodnes, a k-horn out of it's corner looks like a boat out of water; or at least in our smallish rooms. Suggestions? Hints, A sharp rap across the forehead with a rolled-up Kansas City Star? ---------------- What kind of bass traps do you have in your room? It sounds like after a little acoustical treatment that your khorns in the corners will blow your heresies away. Check out the acoustical forum and the thread titled "Artto's Klipschorn room" I have heard his system and I can tell you that there is no lack in imaging at all. I think your biggest problem is that when you move to the center of the room, that is the point where all the bass is getting cancelled out in your room (along the corners and the back wall your bass is building up). I really think the best method is to get some bass traps in there. It'll prob cost you a few hundred dollars, but getting the acoustics right is the most important thing. Once you got the bass figured out, then you might want to start putting diffusion and absorbtion along your walls to help make it less reverbant. Notice less reverbant and not dead sounding. Dead is boring...reverb is good, just not too much of it. Again, there's more info than you'll ever need over in the architectural forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 All of this makes sense. If you are close to the speakers, you're hearing their output very strongly and relatively little reflections from the room. However, the bass output may be better because yor're in the near field, and you get some bass boost from nearby boundries too. Most of what we've been discussing over the years is how much the room effects the sound. But this really assumes that the room comes into play and we're not so close to the speakers. The orchestra conductor just hears the orchestra and not the effect of the hall. The guy in Row Q sure does. You've gotten into the situation of the conductor. Best, Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 4, 2004 Author Share Posted October 4, 2004 You did a real nice job on those, Dean, and I have considered something very similar, so that is an option. But I am a little hesitant due to the size, not knowing if the looks would be acceptable. Dr Who, you are a good doctor! Yes, the room is plagued with severe bass notches around 50hz and 80hz, that are only moderated by sitting within a couple feet of a room boundary. And then, the bass is still kind of lumpy. I do have some RPG Pro-Foam flanking the horns. They help imaging, but do not tame room reverb, as used, so I will have to revisit that issue. The real temptation, especially in light of my rather poor financial situation, is to sell the whole kit and kaboodle; Downsize. You see, my klipsch jones dates back to the seventies, but I also had another audio infatuation from then: ADS loudspeakers. I used to really want a pair of L810's. I remember hearing 710's at a store and being blown away by the clarity and the clean, tight bass. So, I looked 'em up on the internet, and yes, they are still in business, but not chasing the audiophile dollar, it seems. But they do show a little jewel of a speaker, called the HT400LCR, which uses two 5 1/4" woofers and a 1" soft dome tweeter, in a "D'Appolito array". This speaker is made of cast aluminum, weighs a whopping 39 pounds, and is only about 16"tall by 7 1/2" wide by about 9 1/2 " deep - should image like crazy. They also have some really nice subs to go with them. Best of all, the prices are not audiophile prices. I've seen this model on the net for under $250/each. So basically, I have taken up indefinite residence in the state of Confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 4, 2004 Author Share Posted October 4, 2004 Gil, As I'm sure you are probably aware, there is a whole sub-species of audiophilius-geekdorkus that thrives on the near-field, 2-channel experience. Usually via mini-monitors about 3-5 feet apart, listened too from about the same distance. There is an allure there that I can understand, though I generally prefer a more "mid-hall" perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Mark, True, the only way to totally tame the room is to take it out of the equation altogether with headphones ( I use Sennheiser HD-580's--love'em), or to at least minimize it's contribution to the sound, the extreme example of which, would be near-field listening. I guess my trouble is that I want it all - slam, bass, pinpoint imaging and three-dimensionality. And I want it all at "popular prices". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 jdm56, I've been through that mini monitor phase, with me stuck in the middle with LS3/5a's a few feet away from each ear. I'm not knocking that sound, actually it's amazing really, it's like you're wearing a giant set of 'phones. I'm lucky with my room and Klipschorns. My room is about 6 yards long by 5 1/2 yards wide. The Khorns are pushed into the long corners which are constructed of double brick. I guess my wall construction makes a difference to the sound I get. My listening spot is bang in the middle of the room facing the long wall. Everything gells in this spot, the bass, the soundstage - it's like wearing headphones again LS3/5a style. But this time I have it all, including vitually unlimited dynamics. So from reading about audio problems other forum members have to deal with, I guess I have to rank room acoustics as the number one issue we audiophiles have to deal with. It's because my Klipschorns image like crazy that I know room problems are a factor for others. I can almost reach out and touch the vocalists and I can 'see' where each musician is positioned in the mix. If you're not getting that 3 dimensional sound from your Klipschorns, then room treatment is definitely in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Jd, First thing - stop panicking! There are more ways to skin a cat than might immediately spring to mind. No Khorns do not do everything - they are not monitors and they are not designed with nearfield in mind. What they do do is provide size and majesty to recordings in ways few other speakers can (probably no other speaker for the money). What has happened is that you have become familiar with this sonic signature and familiarity breeds contempt. Suddenly you hear a pair of Heresy's - which do indeed privde a few things KHons dont - and think you have discovered Nirvana. Well maybe you have for some recordings, in some moods. Seems to me you have the best of all worlds already. Take your time - enjoy listening to either setup as the mood takes. If, over the course of months you find you never listen to one or other of the setups you have then maybe it is time to start planning a sale. I would suggest spending the next few weeks with your Heresy setup. Once you have got used to it - switch back. I am betting you will be stunned by the "new" sonic vistas they open up and you will wonder how you ever listened to the Heresies... Nice to have both! Personally I cant see how you can lose here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 max, max, max! you are so smart, you said exactly what i was thinking, i have both of the setup's mentioned 1 downstairs 1 upstairs, when i have long sessions in either area i than go to the next area, and i ohhh and ahhh and it is just for the reason you mentioned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 ---------------- On 10/5/2004 7:20:05 AM mdeneen wrote: BTW, after finishing your affair with near-field monitors, it's standard procedure to have an affair with planar speakers! mdeneen ---------------- I must speak to Tony about this - he missed the monitors and went straight to the Planars. They went - now he is on a B&W kick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 FLAT RESPONSE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 as everyone (almost everyone that is, lol) has said, there are many different ways to get "your sound". The room and placement options are SUCH an important factor that I have found different solutions for nearly every place I have lived. What I have discovered that I am generally a horny, that I like the lightning speed and explosive dynamics of horn speakers. The near-field monitor on stands experience is great, I have enjoyed myself in my family room system. Especially if you can find great small monitors. I have also enjoyed a variety of floor standing dynamic speakers, many like you mentioned, basically small monitors mounted over active or passive bass cabs in one floor standing unit. I always come back to horns, I cannot help it, it is what pleases me most. You may find that your sound is better created by cone speakers, if so, just get out there and audition a few, I would reccomend hearing the following before laying down you cash for the newest A/D/S: polk lsi15 Infinity Primus 360 dynaudio audience 62 paradigm studio 60 (or 100) forgot to mention, jmlabs chorus 716-s, or totem arro or staff btw, my fave of those listed above is the paradigm 60, about $1,200 gets you GREAT cone speakers. the infinity may be best bang for buck at $600. best regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 ---------------- On 10/5/2004 7:20:05 AM mdeneen wrote: BTW, after finishing your affair with near-field monitors, it's standard procedure to have an affair with planar speakers! mdeneen ---------------- LOL - been there. Good stats and planars still provide (to my ear) the very best of sound - as long as you plant your butt in a pretty strict sweet spot. It eventually was too much like having an oversized set of headphones - only one person at a time got to experience the nirvana... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 haha, me too, maggie SMGc...liked them a lot...but then I heard klipshorns...tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 One of the things I do now and then to "refresh" things is to move the system, interchange equipment/speakers, rearrange the room. This always injects a freshness of sorts. Makes retuning necessary, forces new interaction. Some nights as we all know we have the absolute best system we've ever owned, then without anything changing it could be terrible on a given night sometime later. Just refresh your system with some rearranging and learn to enjoy it all over again. By the way, does anyone know if Klipsch ever made headphones? Sounds like a neat idea if not a bit canabalistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 klipsch made a phono cartridge...headphones, I do not think so...following up on the klipsch/cartridge thing though, stanton made headphones, really nice ones...tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.