scriven Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 Dean - Your welcome. Just wonder if it got through to those who can use it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Radio and microwave frequencies are best transmitted through wave guides, not wire. Wave guides are rigid frequency-specific retangular tubes cut to specific fractions of wavelengths with silver coatings inside the tube (the signal travels along the inside walls). Losses in wire would be quite excessive at such frequencies and power requirements. Major drawback to German radar in WWII was that they were cable-based. Does this mean that wires are frequency-related? Yes, but does it matter to normal audio frequencies (and current levels)? I don't know. However, I will stand by what I said before. The "skin effect" was the tendency for current to travel on the outermost molecular layers of a given conductor. Not on the outside of the conductor, of course. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Dean: 350 mcm wire is about 1" in diameter (many strands woven together)and is rated at about 900 amps at 480 vac. (roughly) By the way, I was funnen. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeke_in_KC Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 ---------------- On 10/15/2004 5:14:50 PM D-MAN wrote: In the words of Darth Vader - impressive, very impressive. ---------------- I beg to differ! The correct quote is, "Impressive, MOST impressive." Geez man, get your facts straight! Oh yeah, this entire thread is too technical for me and makes me want to smoke crack. (Well, not really, but you get the idea.) Zeke theory: "Switch power on, turn big knob to the right for more sound..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 The skin effect applies to 60Hz as well. I was tthinking that I learned in school that power distribution lines are sometimes made using hollow aluminum wire. I'll try to find the info, but searching the internet can be a huge rabbit trail. edit: I retract that. I know i've seen some hollow aluminum cable, but looking at some manufacturer's websites I can't find any. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceDeuce Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 The skin effect applies to 60Hz as well. I was tthinking that I learned in school that power distribution lines are sometimes made using hollow aluminum wire. My girlfriend always makes me turn it down when I start putting 34,500 volts to my speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scriven Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Marvel, No retraction needed! You are correct, the power companies use hollow transmission lines for distribution. Line loss is the resistance times the square of the current but the power transmitted is voltage times current. Therefore you can raise the voltage and reduce the current to carry the same amount of power with less line loss. What causes the skin effect in that case is the high voltage. The 34KV and higher energy electrons repel each other to the point that they push each other to the outer edges of the wire. It doesn't happen at lower voltages. (Especially the voltages likely to be seen going to a Klipsch speaker!) I have never claimed that there is no such thing as skin effect, just that it does not happen in the conditions where speaker cable is used. I suspect that is also AceDeuce's contention! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unimorpheus Posted October 25, 2004 Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 I started this tread to simply inform anyone who was interested on the results I obtained by bi-wiring a pair of RF-5s and an RC-7 center. While this forum is great I do get tired of the high-minded egomaniacs that can't seem to have a life off of the computer, play God online and hide behind a keyboard. Look, it is simple, I have had time to do some A/B testing and there is a difference. Klipsch seems to believe there is a difference. If you read the manual that is included with the reference series Klipsch states: "Klipsch recommends this method of hook-up for improved bass response, imaging and detail." Why would Klipsch and other manufactures spend the extra money to build bi-wire capability into the product unless there was some advantage to using this method? When it comes to audio, particularly speaker design there are several things that are not clearly understood but everyone agrees that the difference is audible. Case in point, why does a speakers bass response improve when the box is stuffed with fiberfill? I know there are several theories but come on who has ever developed a specific explanation for this phenomenon? If you are one of those people who think bi-wiring is a waist of time then by all means DO NOT BI-WIRE YOUR SPEAKERS. As for the rest of us, let us have our opinion and you have yours. Flame away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 "Case in point, why does a speakers bass response improve when the box is stuffed with fiberfill?" A speaker's internal volume is part of the cabinet/driver/port alignment. So, adding or subtracting material from the cabinet changes the way the speaker behaves. Since it mucks up the alignment -- the bass doesn't "improve". Calculations are done accounting for some material in box -- which is used to break up standing waves within the cabinet. "I know there are several theories but come on who has ever developed a specific explanation for this phenomenon?" No "theories" really, just math. http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm As far as biwiring goes, it's probably system dependant. There were times I thought I heard a difference, but now I don't. The thing that gets me on this is that the full range signal from the amplifier is sent to both the low, and high frequency sections of the crossover before it is "filtered". So, you either send it using a 6 foot (or whatever) cable from the amplifier, or a 3" jumper at the binding post -- either way, a full range signal is sent to both sections of the crossover. What someone needs to explain to me is how in the Hell the network knows the difference! "God" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 There is one critical factor that has not been discussed here, and that is the frequency response of the listener's human ear. Mine is 40HZ to 14KHZ on a good day. Anything occurring above 14K may be affecting someone else's perceptions but not mine. Therefore a difference of opinion. Same with anything below 40HZ as I cannot hear 39HZ at all. Yet I have a sub woofer that goes down to 27HZ. The only thing that the sub woofer did for me was even out the nodes between the K-horns. It also helped out the low level listening characteristics. It did not provide more bass as the K-horns had it in the bag. And also "how do you listen to the music" . I crank it up as high as I can, usually about -11.5, to simulate a small tight rock or jazz band. What I would like is about 5 more tweeters per K-horn so that when that Zilgin cymbal is hit I hear it, and there is no doubt about it. There just is not enough generated power in the high end. That's what my ears tell me. Somebody else would say there is too much. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scriven Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Unimorpheus, Please don't get upset if a thread you start ends up going off in a direction you dont expect. That happens all the time here. Dont worry, your results were noted by the readers. As you can tell from my prior posts, I think that biwiring is a modern version of snake oil. My problem with the whole thing is that I cannot see any theoretical reason that biwiring can make a difference unless the existing speaker cables were undersized to begin with. I disagree with you contention that I am one of the "high-minded egomaniacs that can't seem to have a life off of the computer, play God online and hide behind a keyboard". Ok, I may have to concede high-minded and egomaniac but I think I have a life off the computer and you have absolutely no factual basis to claim otherwise. I would never even consider playing God. I am not hiding at all. My id here is Scriven and all my posts are signed with Mark. Mark Scriven is my name. I live in South Elgin, IL. I am in the phone book. If you, or for that matter anyone else on this forum, want to talk to me send me your phone number in a PM and I will call you so you don't even have to pay for the call. Stealth is not my strong suit! You say that you can hear a difference. It may surprise you but I believe you! This hobby - obsession - addiction is very subjective. I have made many changes to my system and convinced myself that it was much better, only to realize later that I was fooling myself. It is a very easy trap to fall into. You said you have done A/B testing. Exactly how did you do the testing? If you can tell the difference in a double blind, or at least a blind test I would be very interested in knowing that. You also mention that Klipsch recommends this method of hookup. I will take you word for that, however, keep in mind that Klipsch is subject to marketing pressures. If other manufactures speakers are setup for biwiring/biamping then they must make their speakers capable of the same or they will be preserved as lagging behind the others. It does not matter whether this "feature" is actually useful, if they don't have it they will loose on a "bullet point" list of features. As to why speaker manufacturers would add biwire capability if it is not useful, it is very easy and cheep to add to a speaker system so there is very little downside to doing it and it gives the marketing/advertising department something else to trumpet. (They can put it on there "bullet point" list!) Finally, Yes, I am one of those people who think biwiring is a waist of time and I do not biwire my speakers. As for the rest of you, I do not remember saying you should not be allowed to have your opinion or be able to biwire you speakers! If you are happy with your results great! Enjoy them! Wow, I just noticed God seems to be on my side! Thanks Dean! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Dean, I don't want to be reading one of your posts when the real God zaps you with a bolt of lightning! Who knows what that'll do to my computer! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 ---------------- On 10/24/2004 5:37:31 PM Zeke_in_KC wrote: Zeke theory: "Switch power on, turn big knob to the right for more sound..." ---------------- If I ever get the chance, I'm going to design a big knob that gets louder when you turn it to the left; thus disproving your theory and boosting my ego... oh wait, it'd be easier to buy expensive cable to boost me ego. what was i thinking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 yikes, i just realized that could be taken a wrong way so imma comment and mention that i've enjoyed this post...a lot more technical in nature than i've repeatedly seen elsewhere. for the record, i don't think bi-wiring does anything. One test you might want to conduct is running two cables into the same jack on the speaker (not exactly biwiring) and see if you hear any differences. bi-amping has specific qualities to it, but it's main application is for increasing output...adding an active crossover into the signal chain is just adding more distortion (minute, but it's the concept of it all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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