Allan Songer Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Just remember--if you FEED them they tend to hang around forever--a lesson I tend to forget from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 Well at least this thread makes a nice change from SET Vs PP! Now if CD's and SACD's had a run off area - where they made that dub dub dub sound that wakes me up when I have been listening into the early hours I am sure it would be better. As for the PRaT discussion: 1. We already covered that in another thread Paul - and it did not gain much interest. 2. We dont have to (big word coming up) Anthropomorphise a TT for it to have PRaT. A TT either has PRaT or it doesnt. The question is not how a TT achieves PRaT but rather why some don't. Why is it that a given turntable will play a piece of music and get your foot tapping whilst another will not - even with the same everything else (arm, cartridge, phono stage etc. etc.) As it happens I do not think my own TT is all that good in this area. Classical music plays wonderfully but anything with a beat seems subdued somehow and very slightly slow. The problem is not the speed of rotation of the platter - I have checked that many times. I have a sneaking suspicion however that if I increased the speed from 33.3 to 33.7 or something the problem might well solve itself - at the expense, no doubt of other forms of music. I have heard that some TT manufacturers deliberately run their TT's slightly fast - could be for that reason. Also, more confusingly, the problem appears worse with the EL34 tubes that I currently run than it did when I was experimenting with 6550's. And as for the timing issues: TT's may or may not produced a warbled tone when asked to play a continuous tone - I dont know - I have never tried it. I imagine that would be as a result of either power supply variations or stretching in the band that connects motor to TT. If the latter is the case does anyone happen to know if direct drive TT's suffer this problem less? I also know that CD timing problems exist and are called Jitter. Many people - including Mark Deneen have explained this one to me many times - and I still aint got it. Finally - the whole error correction system for CD has me somewhat foxed. I am not sure why you need it - errors on CD should be very small - I seem to remember something like 1 in, 10 to the power 12, bits. Cant help wondering what negative effects on the sound this error correction casues. Anyone ever tried running a CD without it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Max: I'm already on the late side for work, but I wanted to put down for the record that my earlier response to this was not really directed to anyone in particular. It had to do with what seemed to be the increasingly defensive tone of contributions concerning the differences between vinyl and digital. I went through a period about a year ago, where I got out my old but still in near-mint-condition Technics (not the best TT in the world, but it works well!), and was honestly pleasantly surprised and reminded of how good a clean record can sound! Pops and ticks drive me crazy, but I still think that good vinyl can sound more 3-dimensional and holographic than average CDs. I even had a middle school student who once told me how great he thought records were. This was about 4 years ago, and he told me he spent the weekend listening to his dad's 'very good' stereo system. I remember what he said: "You know, Mr. Mandaville? I think CDs sound flat, like a piece of cardboard, but records sound kind of like the 2-pt. perspective drawing we just did (this was one of my lessons). Records sound like there is space in the music!" What an amazing description from a 7th grader! CDs seem to be getting better and better all the time, but as Wolfram, you, and a couple of others have indicated, it might be nice to one day have both. I just have to figure out how to get my TT up and out of the way of 4 wagging dog tails. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 well put Mr. Mandaville and excellent perspective from your student. Please remember class, this is youngster with clear hearing, no reason to prefer one over the other (presumably no $$$$ invested yet), and probably not huge experiences with either. I like it! Sorry about missing the/sarcasm back there, guess I look brilliant in my response, huh? Can't we all just get along? How bout some positive advice? On the TT side, I'd like some advice on modern cartridges to buy. Just have a couple of old Technics SL1700 Direct Drive units. Always liked Stanton 681EEE, think it was, with the little 1g weighted ball/brush out front to kill static and even the rumble from slight warps. Anyone? Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 ---------------- On 11/30/2004 4:27:03 PM paulparrot wrote: I knew a guy who loved Coca-Cola and hated Pepsi. He heard about taste tests and thought anyone who couldn't tell the difference had to be an idiot. As you may have guessed, he took a taste test and, wouldn't you know it, he couldn't tell which was which by a number better than chance. He also got very emotional about it, practically to tears, but what could he do except hope that after a while people would forget what a donkey he had made of himself. There've also been tests on cigarette smokers who are adamant about liking only one particular brand, but it turns out they also can't tell what cigarette they're smoking when they can't see it. A lot of people are adamant that they can hear the superiority of some subtle thing, as long as they know what it is, over something else, provided they can see what it is, too. Nevertheless, I don't know why anyone would have to choose absolutely whether to have LPs or CDs. It's not that tough to have both. ---------------- yeah dude, it's like i've got crack in this pile and heroin in this pile. They're both really pretty white crystals, and I'm so F#@$&$ I can hardly tell the difference. Guess I'll take a big hit of each and MO(*$)#(@!*&FU*#_!#$& OOOHHHNOOOO..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I own HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of CDs. I listen to CDs almost every day. My CD player cost me more than my amps, preamp and Cornwalls all together (BAT VK-D5 tube CD player). But tell you what--records sound better to me. I have not heard SACD in my system but I see very little reason to make the jump due to the almost total lack of software for what I listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 ---------------- On 12/1/2004 8:08:22 AM Allan Songer wrote: I own HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of CDs. I listen to CDs almost every day. My CD player cost me more than my amps, preamp and Cornwalls all together (BAT VK-D5 tube CD player). But tell you what--records sound better to me. I have not heard SACD in my system but I see very little reason to make the jump due to the almost total lack of software for what I listen to. ---------------- Assuming you are talking about Jazz I think you might be surprised to discover that there are some 566 titles that I found at this site - Jazz titles that is - no idea if they are your cup of tea though: http://www.sa-cd.net/titles/0/0/date/100/1 Hardly a competitor to vinyl I know - but probably better than you thought!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 ---------------- On 12/1/2004 8:08:22 AM Allan Songer wrote: I own HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of CDs. I listen to CDs almost every day. My CD player cost me more than my amps, preamp and Cornwalls all together (BAT VK-D5 tube CD player). But tell you what--records sound better to me. I have not heard SACD in my system but I see very little reason to make the jump due to the almost total lack of software for what I listen to. ---------------- I'm not sure if you are aware of the telarc jazz SACD selections...... here is the jazz artist list from the telarc website - all have SACD selections available on the telarc label... http://www.telarc.com/Jazz/artists.asp?mscssid=SM01S3BNGHCQ8JM0SRN1NSWBWJB08NU9 A Monty Alexander Geri Allen B Count Basie Orchestra Louie Bellson Cheryl Bentyne Bluezeum Ray Brown Dave Brubeck Jeanie Bryson C Michel Camilo Freddy Cole George Coleman Hank Crawford D Tony Darren Jeremy Davenport Al Di Meola The Dizzy Gillespie Alumni All-Star Big Band G Erroll Garner Dizzy Gillespie Stephane Grappelli Benny Green Al Grey H Jim Hall Ed Hamilton Lionel Hampton Slide Hampton Jon Hendricks Hiromi J Ahmad Jamal K Geoffrey Keezer Kristin Korb Mark Kramer L La Vienta Ivan Lins Jacques Loussier M Kevin Mahogany Manchester Craftsmen's Guild The Manhattan Transfer Jimmy McGriff Metalwood Jason Miles Marcus Miller Liza Minnelli James Moody Frank Morgan Gerry Mulligan P Joe Pass Oscar Peterson Pieces of a Dream Courtney Pine John Pizzarelli Andre Previn R Ernest Ranglin Steve Reid Thom Rotella Vanessa Rubin Hilton Ruiz S Saxophone Summit John Serry George Shearing Bobby Short Janis Siegel Spyro Gyra Tierney Sutton T Mel Torme Travelin' Light Steve Turre McCoy Tyner V Roseanna Vitro W Joe Williams Nancy Wilson and if you are into blues - here is their list of blues artist on SACD.... http://www.telarc.com/blues/artists.asp?mscssid=SM01S3BNGHCQ8JM0SRN1NSWBWJB08NU9 B Tab Benoit Lady Bianca Eric Bibb Rory Block Junior Brown C Tommy Castro Deborah Coleman James Cotton E Ronnie Earl Tinsley Ellis Terry Evans G Marty Grebb H Hoodoo Kings J Luther "Guitar Junior" Johnson Lloyd Jones K Eddie Kirkland L Sam Lay Robert Lockwood Jr. M Bob Margolin Mighty Sam McClain Memphis Horns Muddy Waters Tribute Band Maria Muldaur Charlie Musselwhite N Kenny Neal P Pinetop Perkins John Primer S Son Seals T Otis Taylor Jimmy Thackery Troy Turner W Joe Louis Walker Junior Wells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I read an interview several years ago with the chief of the Philips CD program. He said the entire time they were developing the Compact Disc they assumed they were working on a replacement for the CASSETTE TAPE! They never in a million years thought they were devolping a product that would replace the LP because they KNEW that the CD had some pretty serious limitations when compared with the LP. What they failed to grasp is the 99% of the music buying public listens to their music on CRAP systems . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I had a stanton 681EEE mounted on a HK Rabco ST-7 linear tracking turntable...loved the sound, later moved to a 881S (?), those stanton cartridges were very musical...tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Regarding PRaT, especially in regard to what Tim said, someone can get into the music and tap his foot to a boombox, or a cheap clock radio CD player from China like Allan uses. Does the boombox or clock radio then have PRaT? Two people can listen to the same audiophile system at the same time in the same room, and one is moved, the other is not. Does the system have PRaT or not? Does it have 50% PRaT? Or is PRaT essentially meaningless when it comes to describing equipment, and it really refers to the emotional involvement of the individual listener? My main complaint about PRaT is the completely misleading terminology involved. Pace, rhythm, and timing are conductor/musician qualities, not the equipment's. It'd be better to talk about emotional involvement, breath of life, transparency of the playback equipment, etc., than to muddy the waters by redefining what the words pace, rhythm, and timing mean. Yes, Max, if you sped up your turntable, your foot would tap a little faster. So does that mean the turntable would have more PRaT? It's fairly obvious that one's personal emotional connection to his favorite music also extends backwards to the delivery system of this music. For numerous reasons, some people are bothered more by the flaws of one medium as opposed to another. If you like the music enough, though, it will come through no matter what, even to the extreme case of Allan's $39 player. I have a lot more LPs than CDs or SACDs, and I'm happy playing any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 Thanks Mark, I almost missed your reply. Do hard disks have something similar then - to CD error correction - or are they better made and therefore dont need it? If the latter is true - would a better made CD player therefore not need error correction. Sorry for the digital storage 101 questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 ---------------- On 12/1/2004 10:08:32 AM paulparrot wrote: Regarding PRaT, especially in regard to what Tim said, someone can get into the music and tap his foot to a boombox, or a cheap clock radio CD player from China like Allan uses. Does the boombox or clock radio then have PRaT? Two people can listen to the same audiophile system at the same time in the same room, and one is moved, the other is not. Does the system have PRaT or not? Does it have 50% PRaT? Or is PRaT essentially meaningless when it comes to describing equipment, and it really refers to the emotional involvement of the individual listener? My main complaint about PRaT is the completely misleading terminology involved. Pace, rhythm, and timing are conductor/musician qualities, not the equipment's. It'd be better to talk about emotional involvement, breath of life, transparency of the playback equipment, etc., than to muddy the waters by redefining what the words pace, rhythm, and timing mean. Yes, Max, if you sped up your turntable, your foot would tap a little faster. So does that mean the turntable would have more PRaT? It's fairly obvious that one's personal emotional connection to his favorite music also extends backwards to the delivery system of this music. For numerous reasons, some people are bothered more by the flaws of one medium as opposed to another. If you like the music enough, though, it will come through no matter what, even to the extreme case of Allan's $39 player. I have a lot more LPs than CDs or SACDs, and I'm happy playing any of them. ---------------- If my foot does not tap at all now - and it does when the TT is speeded up a little then yes - I guess it would have more PRaT. Can we decide what equipment we are talking about? - I thought we were covering PRaT as it applied to TT's and not as it applied to boomboxes and the like. I agree that the source of PRaT is the music (conductor/musician qualities as you put it) but what we are talking about here is the ability of the equipment (in this case a TT) to convey exactly that. Some do it better than others IME. I still dont know why this one irritates you so much. For example Linn turntables are supposed to be very good at PRaT, whilst some high mass designs are not considered as good. I do not know why this should be, but it is a very common report amongst reviewers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Max, In case Mark doesn't get back to you, yes, the Solomon-Reed algorithms are used on computer hard drives too. There are many many many thousands of "errors" that occur in reading a CD. You could theoretically have 3/4 of a million on one CD and still be within spec. But these are not "errors" that result in, say, the wrong note being played, or the wrong word being sung. And they are made proper on the fly and are undetectable to the human brain. Human qualities are sometimes assigned to players, and thus someone will claim his disc with fewer errors sounds better when played because the CD player "doesn't have to work as hard" fixing them. That's silly talk. PRaT: I personally wouldn't use the term at all. But I've seen it used to describe just about anything, including patch cords and power cords. If all that is really meant is that the equipment in question resolves better, why not say that it resolves better, instead of making up new audio buzzwords that are not accurately describing the observed phenomenon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 ---------------- On 11/30/2004 5:33:45 PM Allan Songer wrote: Who really gives a flying f*ck? Enjoy your records, Max. Let the others enjoy their CDs. Jeeeeeesus! ---------------- AMEN!! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_L Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 >>> some of us even put up with mono! <<< Yikes!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 4, 2004 Author Share Posted December 4, 2004 Steve, Dont knock mno till you have sampled it on a decent Turntble. I wont go into long audiophile speak volmes over the joys - just get yourself in front of a TT front ended system and try it - you might be surprised!!! Much of my favorite listening is to mono recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 Do you ever play mono through one speaker instead of two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 4, 2004 Author Share Posted December 4, 2004 I have done that a few times. IT is easy for me as I have a dual mono Pre-amp with separate left right volume conrols. It is just a pain dragging the speaker into the middle of the room. Next time I build a speaker I am gonna take a leaf out of B&W's book and put the damn things on wheels!! If I dont bother to move the speaker it generally sounds better with 2 speakers than either one on its own. Also - a friend who listenes to many mono recordings tells me that when I get a new TT I should get one with 2 arms and run a mono cartrdige on one of them. Apparently it makes a big difference. Course if I were going to do that then I may as well go the whole hog and get a player that does 78's as well - which will mean a new phono stage too. On the other hand - what a PITA - it sounds fine to me through 2 speakers via the Shelter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 4, 2004 Share Posted December 4, 2004 My $39 Chinese CD player (or so Parrot the Poodle claims): If you stuff this Chinese $39 CD player (which is made in the USA and costs $5000) with some nice old British tubes it just might be the best sounding CD player you have ever heard!!! LPs still sound better to me, but since buying this $39 Chinese CD player I have enjoyed Compact Discs quite a lot and quite often---nearly every day!!! I can't reccomend this $39 Chinese CD player highly enough!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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