dodger Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Excellent writing Ben. Well stated and summed up. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 That radio station broadcasting a Marley song was almost certainly playing a CD. So, fine, the romanticism of the circumstances and the beauty of nature enhanced the enjoyment of the music, in this case brought to you through the awful digital format that is the CD, which was then EQ'd further and heavily compressed by the radio station, then broadcast over the air to a low-fi car radio and low-fi car speakers, and you probably were sitting slightly left of the sweet spot too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 ---------------- On 11/30/2004 7:17:38 PM paulparrot wrote: That radio station broadcasting a Marley song was almost certainly playing a CD. So, fine, the romanticism of the circumstances and the beauty of nature enhanced the enjoyment of the music, in this case brought to you through the awful digital format that is the CD, which was then EQ'd further and heavily compressed by the radio station, then broadcast over the air to a low-fi car radio and low-fi car speakers, and you probably were sitting slightly left of the sweet spot too. ---------------- Poor little Parrot--you're not gonna provoke anyone with THAT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 ---------------- On 11/30/2004 7:17:38 PM paulparrot wrote: That radio station broadcasting a Marley song was almost certainly playing a CD. So, fine, the romanticism of the circumstances and the beauty of nature enhanced the enjoyment of the music, in this case brought to you through the awful digital format that is the CD, which was then EQ'd further and heavily compressed by the radio station, then broadcast over the air to a low-fi car radio and low-fi car speakers, and you probably were sitting slightly left of the sweet spot too. ---------------- Call it whatever you want, Paul. The shortcomings of the audio chain in that example had nothing to do with the effect on the listener. Just as the shortcoming of my analog and your digital systems are easily overcome in our respective cases. Carl Nielsen called it "Det Uudslukkelige". It's within all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I'd rather listen to Lee Morgan on a $39 Chinese clock radio CD player than Diana Krall or Patricia Barber or Steely Dan or Black Sabbath or WHATEVER crap music you can name (and I know it's not crap to many of my fellow Klipsch brothers) on the best goddamn stereo in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 That radio station could very well have been playing an MP3! Win, This is sort of another subject you mentioned but I didn't know quite what you meant by it. You talked about a tax on blank CDs and other stuff. CD-Rs that you burn in a PC are run of the mill variety and you don't pay that tax. It's only the ones you have to get for the standalone CD recorders for audio. And most of those you can fool by putting in one of the audio CD blanks and then swapping it out for the generic ones right before you hit record. And now, back to the music... Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 "you can't talk about a steady tone paul!!!...... don't you know that we're discussing MUSIC here????" didn't see any comebacks here but cant help myself. Most music may not sound like test tones, but there are similarities. A sustained tone on a violin string, for instance is very much like a sine wave. Just chop it up into 44,000 pieces and put it back together and it will not sound the same. Like digital photography, I don't care how many megapixals your digital camera has, my film in my Hassleblad has an INFINITE number of pixals, just like the grooves in a vinyl LP. Electronic music and ambient music has many steady, if not sine wave tones. A decaying piano note will really show wow and flutter on a tape deck, but can also reveal problem in other recording mediums as well. Not to flame, but remember that music is not all dynamic and constantly shifting. There are steady tones. Shortcomings in all recording genres can be detected without the use of lab instruments. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 So what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 ---------------- On 11/30/2004 8:01:17 PM colterphoto1 wrote: "you can't talk about a steady tone paul!!!...... don't you know that we're discussing MUSIC here????" ---------------- you missed my (/sarcasm off) fake quote sign...... personally, i agree with the assertion - if a turntable can't play a steady tone, then how accurate can it be..... not to upset anyone here - just my opinion........ but listen to what you like...... i know i do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Nielsen had been dead for decades before digital formats were invented, so I think we should look elsewhere for answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Um, excuse me sir but who was the one who proclaimed he has found system synergy nirvana and I quote "I challenge anoybody, anywhere, to have a systen that sounds this GREAT." When you say crap like that, it just rubs people the wrong way, I know it did me. Now, who has the attitude? Paul, I am in agreement with you here buddy, I love my digital. Tim, has an attitude, along with guy. I havr no room for vinyl in my hime, but, I did try with a very respectable rega P3, with upgrades. These vinyl zealots are a unique bunch I am trying, buying, selling, returning digital at record pace, and these Vinyl guys are making a mockery out of my endeavors, and mission. It is truely a shame ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschfoot Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 ---------------- On 11/30/2004 4:40:10 PM paulparrot wrote: There are some things that are indisputable facts, for example, that the speed of a CD is true while the speed of an LP is not. All that needs to be done to demonstrate this is to have a recording of a steady tone, and play it on CD versus LP. The tone on the LP will waver. ---------------- Who listens to steady tones? Digital is for tubes as viny is for SS? Well, not quite. Months ago I put on a CSNY record (yea, that is what we used to call them) after years of digital. Grant it that my digital playback is not near what yours is, but I literally spun around at my system as I was caught by the, dare I say, NATURALNESS of the sound. OH! it sounded good. But, admittedly, I am 47 and memories of a real stereo system (tweak!!) rebounded in my head and I was 18 again. Maybe THAT might bring some to vinyl's defense. But it is more than that. Real world music is not sanitized 1s and 0s. So you cannot expect that 1s and 0s will accurately replicate musicness. BUT SOME like that. Digital is upon us because (are you ready for this?) IT IS CHEAP! Okay, I will run and hide now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Indisputable? Hardly. Many mid to high end turntables have power regulated speed controllers. Not a limitation of the media or turntable, but rather the electrical power being feed to it. Correct the flow of current, and the speed is a close as it need to be. CDs players reading CDs have minute timing errors, commonly know as jitter. This can play havoc with the delicate sounds of instruments making them sound artificial. The is no perfect music format. ---------------- On 11/30/2004 4:40:10 PM paulparrot wrote: There are some things that are indisputable facts, for example, that the speed of a CD is true while the speed of an LP is not. All that needs to be done to demonstrate this is to have a recording of a steady tone, and play it on CD versus LP. The tone on the LP will waver. But then along comes the mystical "Pace, Rhythm, and Timing" brigade who think the turntable senses the pace, rhythm, and timing of the musicians better, and can get them swingin' automatically somehow, I guess by magic. Weird that with these magical turntables with PRaT that they never seem to make a mistake and get the band's rhythm all off. Exactly what kind of magical parts are in these record players anyway, that they can do this? Is it added to a turntable by a spell, or is it engineered in? ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 The ouput of a digital format is a wave, not some gross staircase. With CD, you have 44,100 samples taken for every second of music. With SACD, it's 64 times that, or 2.8 million samples a second. Analog is overly romanticized. Take the cassette tape: analog all the way. Shouldn't it have infinite resolution then, since it doesn't resort to sampling or computer processing at all? But anyone familiar with cassettes knows their limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 The timing errors of CDs are nothing compared to the timing errors of a turntable. Anyway, still awaiting your explanation of how a turntable can figure out what pace, rhythm, and timing sounds just right for a given performance. Also, if the turntable has been playing all night, does it get tired and screw up every so often, and make the band members play out of time with each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Excuse me but cassette tapes are mear consumer fodder for the real thing. Analog tape is held in high esteem as a high quality recording media. Cassette tapes are limited by slow speed, but Reel to Reel 15 or 30 ips is not so limited. ---------------- On 11/30/2004 9:37:06 PM paulparrot wrote: Analog is overly romanticized. Take the cassette tape: analog all the way. Shouldn't it have infinite resolution then, since it doesn't resort to sampling or computer processing at all? But anyone familiar with cassettes knows their limitations. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 So you say.. >The timing errors of CDs are nothing compared to the timing errors of a turntable. Not all turntables setups have good PRaT. If it makes one dance, or tap one's toes involuntarily, the system has got PRAT. Audio components don't have PRAT per se; they just reproduce the PRAT contained in recorded music with varying degrees of accuracy. >Anyway, still awaiting your explanation of how a turntable can >figure out what pace, rhythm, and timing sounds just right for >a given performance. Also, if the turntable has been playing all >night, does it get tired and screw up every so often, and make >the band members play out of time with each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Comparing cassettes to a good vinyl system or even to 1/4" tape running at 15 ips is like using 8-bit samples as an example for digital audio. Paul, do really get a kick out pissing people off? It's hard for me to believe that anyone can be that literal minded and narrow. I've tried to be reasonable, but I really want to put my foot up your, wait... no. I want to put both Brennan & Songer's feet up your.. oh, nevermind. Just take a few minutes and think of your little childish retort that really has no bearing on any reasoned discourse (not that the podiatric maneuver I had in mind was reasoned). It's your gig. I wouldn't want to take what little enjoyment you have in your pathetic world. BTW, the point I made regarding Nielsen was regarding life in general. That would be ovious to just about anyone with the mentality of Courtney Love and above. It's possible that you knew that, but I honestly don't know what else to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Of course he does. Why we indulge him is another mystery. I'm done with this thread and going to listen to music. It might be Analog, Digital or both. Who knows... ---------------- On 11/30/2004 10:32:49 PM bclarke421 wrote: Paul, do really get a kick out pissing people off? ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 ---------------- On 11/30/2004 10:37:56 PM No Disc wrote: I'm done with this thread and going to listen to music. It might be Analog, Digital or both. Who knows... ---------------- I vote for both. We can have a race and put the whole matter to rest once and for all. Now where's Olivia Newton John with that kerchief? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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