Deang Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 LOL O.K., I'll quit being so pissy. But Erik gets all the email on botched network jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 And I came on to apologize for my own defensive tone. I'm sorry about that. Rick, I did see Dean's step-by-step instructions on that other thread -- I mentioned I thought it was very well done, which it really was. The dirty linen is now in the rinse cycle, and will soon be dried, folded, and put away. Thanks for putting this in check. Erik Hiya, Craig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Hey Erik, While your at it, can ya do my laundry ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 Laundry is a futile battle! I just wanted to mention that the L-pad type 'A' networks are installed and working fine. Something really sounded strange at first, and I checked the channel balancing with the Lexicon. It was WAAAY out of whack, which means I must have been changed the adjustment on the L-pads when I was reinstalling the autoformer. I rebalanced those (which is thankfully now a much less painless process!), and everything sounds very good. I somehow feel better with the autoformer in place, so I appreciate the nudging that sent me back to the work bench to put them back in. I was worried it was going to mess things up somehow, but that didn't turn out to be the case at all. Cheers, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 Laundry is a futile battle! I just wanted to mention that the L-pad type 'A' networks (plus autoformers)are installed and working fine. Something really sounded strange at first, and I checked the channel balancing with the Lexicon. It was WAAAY out of whack, which means I must have changed the adjustment on the L-pads when I was reinstalling the autoformer; one was way too high, and the other turned almost off. I rebalanced those (which is thankfully now a much less painless process!), and everything sounds very good. I somehow feel better with the autoformer in place, so I appreciate the nudging that sent me back to the work bench to put them back in. I was worried it was going to mess things up somehow, but that didn't turn out to be the case at all. Cheers, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 I can't help but think this whole L-pad saga must be tiresome for some. But let me just think out loud, here.... Something curious is going on. The overall sound is as before -- very open, fast as heck, amazing transient response; all those characteristics that make Klipsch speakers amazing. But as I sat listening very carefully, I seem to be able to detect a sort of subtle 'cutting-out' or clamping of the tails of notes. I love to hear the attack and natural decay, but in certain music I've been listening to, that final decay (tails)seem to be sort of choked off -- and in this case in what might be a literal sense. Playing ball outside with the dogs after dinner, it suddenly occurred to me that both the autoformer (an inductive element)and the wire-wound L-pad, which is probably also inductive, are being combined by way of the connection between the two. Both are also connected to common on one end, and there may be a certain amount of inductive coupling or interaction between the two. There is a certain amount of signal being shunted to ground at either end because of the common grounded connection. I'm pretty tired, and maybe I'm just imagining this, but I wonder what would happen if I.... ...I'll let you know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 ...if I remove the ground connection on the autoformer, but leave the input and output in place, which seems to be helping. It certainly hasn't done anything negative. It's now probably acting as simple inductor in series with the load, which may be just fine. E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 I just finished building, temporarily it's still in the "stuck in there phase of engineering", a set of L-pads for both mids and highs. Listening tests are now being conducted critically by both Mike and Ike. Since neither dog has fled the room, it can't be too shrill. I am able to bring the JBL 2404H's down that 2Dbs and fine tune the K-55 by one and really bring the bass more front and center. I'll have to wait until after midnight when the power cleans up for some critical listening of my own. It seems that the outside outlet with all the Christmas lights is on the same breaker as my outside wall where my system is. The lights are timed to turn off at midnight. Plus I'm using my ST-35 EL-84 amp while I epoxy the WAF black walnut side pannels on the Wrights. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 Rick: Great! I have also noticed a real improvement in really BOTH bass and treble response. I just didn't realize how much midrange was present until I had the ability to turn it down just a little. Let us know how it works out, or whatever else you might discover or learn! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 An interesting idea using an L-Pad to tone down the squawker, especially with a Khorn or LaScalla where the network is accessible through the back. Trying to do this with a Cornwall or Heresy would be a more challenging task because the crossover is inside the speaker. A hole would have to be drilled through the back to connect the L-pad. Not a great thing to do cosmetically or for sound purposes. I guess to do this I would have to know the idea really works and is kept by Erik and company for a while before I will experiment. Keep posting your opinions and any suggestions for how to implement it with Cornwalls. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 L-pads are evil contemptable things. I read that somewhere. It would drive me crazy having them. I would never know what setting was "right". It's why I don't like tone controls either. You know, all that fiddling and piddling just gives me an upset stomach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Dean, As I sit here listening, the "extra" bass is wearing on me. If I were playing a (GASP) record I would be rechecking the VTA. The only thing I am not sure of is if it is the amp or the speaker so I'm not touching anything until I can take one of my Wrights out of the glue clamps in the AM and try them while I check the feedback on the ST-35. The feedback is adjustable and like all pots they are there to be turned aren't they? The test is a square wave at 500Hz I'll check it on the bench in the AM. I'm going to snap a couple of pics of the square wave response of the Wright first. Craig asked my to do that a while ago. I'll email them to him so as not to start another war on the best way to look at scope pictures. I think in the end I'll just be using the L-pad on the high end for the JBLs though. Something was different about the soundstage on the Moody Blues. I didn't get the same level of flashback that I normally do. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I'm confused, I thought you were running ALKs? I thought your JBLs were free floating -- just sitting on top of the K-horns. Why not just turn them a little, and get off axis from them? It should drop the perceived output without upsetting the image too badly. I don't know, I read through all this stuff, and to me -- it just looks like trying to use the multiplication table to do calculus. Emphasis on to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviserated Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 How about that $99.00 graphic equalizer at Best Buy. Simply turn down that ****ty midrange. Or take away and/or add anything else in the whole frequency range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 I understand what Dean and Rick are saying. I also really do hear more bass, as well as HF. It's not that the frequency response has become more extended at either pole, but rather that I hear more air on top, and a more even balance between treble, mid, and bass overall. When Craig Born2rock came over for a listen and to pick up that Baldwin amp (see elswhere), he very politely indicated that the majority of what we were hearing was from the midrange -- which seemed to me as it should be, since that by a fair margin constitutes the majority of information on recorded material. "What can I do to turn the midrange down?" he asked. I looked at the crossover in the K-horn top section he brought for comparison, and noticed that output taps were absent, just as they are on my AL networks. I was going to suggest the most often prescribed cure for this ailment: change the output tap to another setting. In the absence of that, and given the fact that his network, cables, and drivers were practically all welded together permanently, I suggest something that had worked well for me in the past -- an L-pad. This was mainly to see if the problem he was having could be cured by simply turning down the midrange, which turned out to be the case in my own situation, as well. What Dean said about wondering if the setting was correct is so, true, as well, and I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said the same thought hadn't also occurred to me. But it also occurred to me that the same thing can happen when choosing one set of tap over another on the comparatively more permanently 'set' autoformer. Moreover, what will sound right for one recording might not be the case for another. Regardless of whether the autoformer or an L-pad is used to attenuate the driver, there is going to be some variability of it's effectiveness and/or accuracy from one recording to another. Yet another compromise. What I guess I like about the L-pad is it's somewhat greater flexibility in terms of both how it's used, as well as the fact that it can provide smaller increments of attenuation. But that may in fact turn out to be, for some, its biggest weakness! One might always be left wondering if it is adjusted just right, and that sure wouldn't make listening to music much fun! Like seemingly everything in this hobby, the use of an L-pad over the autoformer, or vis-versa, may come to down to nothing more than personal preference. A more 'pure' way still, would be to tri-amp a system, crossed over at line levels before the amplifiers, and use the volume controls on the amplifiers (if they have one) to control the output of each driver. If the amps are power amps only, the VC could be installed inline at the line level. Rick: Are these JBLs you're talking about the so-called 'Baby Cheeks' tweeters? Wolfram Dubai200 has those and says they are amazingly good! TGIF, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I have NOT touched my L-Pads adjustment since the day you installed them , ERIK ! I easily found the balance and they sound so much more balanced . Better highs and stronger lows ! For ME...the L-Pad was the solution. ** If anyone has a squawker attentuation problem, the L-Pad is an inexpensive option ($12 per pair and little soldering) to test it on your own. *** You will never know until you try IT ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 aviserated...a $99 Best Buy E.Q. would add too much noise to your system....but that would be an approach to see if you may want a simple $12 set of L-Pads. Buy the e.q.from Best Buy...test it into your system, ...then if you see that the squawker was fefinitley dominate in your setup...return the E.Q. to Best Buy for a refund, then install the L-Pad. ***Just a though, on my part.*** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I just have to ask, ..... Eric, why are you using both an L-pad AND the Autoformer? Both do the same thing, so only one is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviserated Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Speaker placement is critical when balancing the high and low frequencies. You can either be too close(boomy) or too far away (bright) from from the rear wall using floor standers. Since my integrated amp has no tone controls, I had to move my SF Grand Piano Homes until I found that magical sweet spot, that perfect balance of high and low frequencies. The results of being to close or too far away can be dramatic. Plus I have no tone control to get in the way of good clean sound. I can understand why the Khorns would need some kind of tone control, they are permanent corner setting speakers. But mybe one could improve the overall tone buy simply moving the Khorns around in the corners. Maybe a tight air seal between wall and speaker is not the way to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 "Rick: Are these JBLs you're talking about the so-called 'Baby Cheeks' tweeters? Wolfram Dubai200 has those and says they are amazingly good!" Yes, they are the "baby cheeks" and are clearer and more extended than the K-77. However they are 105Db effecient and overpower the bass and mids. Thus an L-pad is required as the tap changes on the ALK are to adjust the Squaker output.(Dean) Once I find the correct balance I'll ohm it out and build a component based L-pad with Mills resistors and mount it in the tweeter box. Jon, Why L-pads? $15.00 and hours of enjoyment tinkering. Do we need another reason? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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