Colin Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 And why? How much would something like that cost? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Size, sensitivity and bandwidth need to be specified before one can say "better" than the Khorns (or anything else). From the looks of your webpage, I'd say you already have the optimum bass set-up possible at home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Are we talking household horns? If we are talking domesticated horns, the Khorn is the best example of utilizing space efficiently for the output down to 33Hz +/-3db. That is hard to beat. Most of the others that I have heard and liked take up more room as they are not corner horns but are the typical rectangular PA types. The Altec A7 doesn't quite go as low, but it has a better polar response and does not have a time-delay. It is a 2-way system with an 80Hz fc bass horn and a rear-loaded reflex port tuned to 35 Hz. The Altec 515 driver by itself has an astonishing 104db sensitivity, which is right up there with the Klipschorn. This particular speaker is (IMO) the only real compeditor with the Khorn as far as performance. It just takes up more room but could be used in some larger listening spaces. Altec is making these again, but they cost $4k each and are painted black, so VERY LOW WAF. The other horn that is about the same size as an A7 is a University Classic. It has a fc of 50Hz, so it would go down to the low 40's, I recon. Q-man has reported very favorably about the bass output of this horn. It is a front-loaded horn of simple constuction and few parts. The Hartsfield is another domestic corner horn, patented in 1959 but I have never heard one. They are also 2-way. They are very nice looking, perhaps the prettiest of all of the household horn designs. Looking at the specs, the performance should be comparable to the Khorn. One of its virtues is that it can be configured as a rear-loaded or a front-loaded horn depending on the application. It's most expensive when configured as a front-loaded horn, of course. The British had their Tannoy corner horns too, except that the Brits seem to prefer to back-load a full-range driver rather than come up with a front-loaded design. Both the Tannoy GRF and Autograph are rear-loaded. The Autograph is the monster, standing 60 inches tall. I have not heard one of these either. They are highly regarded. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 whoa- talk about an accurate answer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Sorry, it's more of an opinionated overview than a technically correct answer. But I like to blabber incessantly about horns anyway, so any excuse to do so - and look what happens! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 mentioning accurate numbers is technically correct enough for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I was talking to someone yesterday who had heard a pair a Jubilee's and thought that the bass kicked butt. Even better than Khorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 good point, I don't doubt it! wonder if I bouyght a movie theater, put a pair of Jubilees in front, if I could get wonderful sound at a price I could afford! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Whoa, dudes: The commercial Jubilee (KHJ-LF) is rated at 45Hz +/- 4db which is quite a bit LESS capable bass-wise than the Khorn 33Hz +/- 3db. At least it doesn't go as low, let's put it that way. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 The Jubilee is better than the standard Khorn by 6db at 40hz. The Hartsfield started out as 2 way 150-4 woofer and 375 HF...later the 075 tweeter was added. Tannoy Westminster came in two versions ..Standard and Royal. The Lee Cantinoid was pretty good but a bit of a long time since i heard that one. How mutch to better all this? For a one off super horn system? to better the above? $50,000 pr How many do you want? You can rest assured the Klipschorn will be the last great horn to come out of Klipsch LLC. When that floor sweeper that makes the Khorn now, dies that WILL be the last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Maron, if that's true then someone should notify Klipsch as they are publishing 45Hz lower fc for the Jubilee. Granted the Jubilee is probably LOUDER for a given input. But that doesn't mean that it goes LOWER. Also in reading the paper by PWK on the Jubilee bass horn, it doesn't go as low, that's also here on the BBS, posted by Gil. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 http://www.eaw.com/products/BH822e.html ±3 db from 24 Hz to 300 Hz 109 dB sensitivity Max SPL 139 dB continuous (145 dB peak) HxWxD = 32x36x52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Here ya go Colin. Just run right out and get a set of these! DM, How can a rear ported speaker not have a time/phase delay when you sit in front of it? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 The A7/828 (and variants) horn "shuts down" below its fc due to increasing reactance but the reflex port is tuned below the horn's fc and it becomes the more efficient of the two as it approaches its tuning point. Above fc the horn is the main broadcaster (of course the port is also active but to a lesser degree because it is tuned to below the horns operating fc), below fc the port takes over as the main broadcaster as it is a "balancing act". This is an over-simplification, but I believe that it is a reasonably accurate description of the theory. I could be wrong. I think DJK had a better description in the LS thread about ports and how they work. The time delay issue due to the difference in distance between the port and the horn is therefore not an issue, and also the woofer diapragm is relatively in the same plane as the upper frequency horn diaphragm (more or less) so essentially no delay there either. I have not heard of anyone complaining from perceived lag-time on a reflex port. In the case where there was a longer horn on the port (like a Tannoy corner horn) there might be a noticable lag, but I sort of doubt it as you do have some sound coming from the "front" horn which would tend to "cover" it up, I recon. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 There is a term "group delay" which refers to the amount of time it takes for a particular frequency to develop and is measured in ms. At the low end of the port frequency, the group delay will increase by as much as 500% in a bell shaped curve. For a sealed box, the group delay remains basically constant. Ports get less effective as you move away from the tuning point. Roughly, 3 Hz either way results in 3dB less output. A properly tuned port will start producing sound at the same rate the horn's response is dropping whish is why it can work with a horn. Due to the loading of the port, the woofer is barely moving at frequencies around the tuning frequency. Instead, the air moving through the port acts like a new driver. Having a rear port is like having a speaker in the back and you should have some delay. However, the frequencies in question are huge compared to the baffle size so the sound disperses in every direction which means there is very little delay at all. There is however some phase issues with the sound bouncing off the rear wall which means careful speaker placement will be needed. I wonder what advantages there are (if any) of hornloading a passive radiator...or of hornloading both the front and rear of the same driver. I also wonder how hard it'd be to add a port to the khorn. I know there's not that much room in the cabinet, but there's gotta be some way to vent through the top or bottom of the cabinet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 D-Man has a good memory. I havn't been around much lately, and I've been in somewhat of a slump and not working on my projects. The University Classic bass horn may still be my favorite sounding bass horn. I think I found a midrange driver and horn to take this bass horn to the next level like I did with the Klipschorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 ---------------- On 12/31/2004 5:27:31 AM DrWho wrote: I wonder what advantages there are (if any) of hornloading a passive radiator...or of hornloading both the front and rear of the same driver. I also wonder how hard it'd be to add a port to the khorn. I know there's not that much room in the cabinet, but there's gotta be some way to vent through the top or bottom of the cabinet. ---------------- Great discussion folks - just about the time I say to myself 'Self, nothing much entertaining here'. I think the Phone booth doctor has something here - if you can create a backloaded horn what would happen if you took the back waves transistioned to a passive then front load? Intriguing to say the least, but if memory serves correctly doesn't the passive have some of the same tendencies of porting - that being that it is most effective at or near the tuning point. If that is the case you would be faced with some more worlk to be sure that the passive horn loading is not more efficient than the rest of the LF being covered by the bin. As to delay - this gets very dicey with my ear - some of the waves are so long anyway that it becomes darn hard to manage the timing associated with your ear. I would imagine one needs to work pretty hard to introduce a significant delay that would be heard by our mostly 'untrained' ears. Fun read - keep it up guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Dman...I didnt say anything about "going as low" I said the Jubilee is 6db better at 45hz..And it is look at the aes paper again...Im not talking about the ruggidized cinema version....The aes paper gives fe of 19...The cutoff of horn will determin the rest. Klipsch has not released who supplied woofers of either Jubilee versions. The upper driver HF on 2way version was B&C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Damn Dman, nice posts -- thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 The Fc of an 828/A7 horn is about 160hz, because of the very low Qts of the driver the speaker is down about 10dB at 40hz WRT 200hz. The Fc of the Klipschorn is about 47hz, the rear chamber is resonated at about 40hz to produce some useable output below Fc. The Jubilee has an Fc of about 38hz, and produces slightly less bass than the Klipschorn (below 50hz) as the horn mouth is a little undersized for the lower Fc. "An array of four BH822es will produce a maximum output of 146.0 dB at 28 Hz" "The BH822e subwoofer system is engineered for use in arrays of four or more modules" You will need eight modules to get the 24hz response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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