System shopping what a bummer.

[AnalOg]

Took a ride with my nephew last night in search of an HT upgrade system above and beyond his home theatre in a box. We ended up at what I believed to be a competent high end stereo/HT boutigue. I have to say I was extremely dissappointed with the auditions that took place in the theatre rooms. First up was RF35 series fronts, centers & sourounds, along with the Klipsch 12 inch sub, model escpes me. Denon flagship DVD player & receiver were the front end sources. Watching a scene from the Matrix almost made me want to run out the room, so bright and edgy man did it hurt, I was very unimpressed. Now if I did'nt know better I'd say that system speakers and front end were crap. Next I asked to hear the B&W's towers again model ascapes me, with some two channel listening they had setup in another "listening room". They were hooked up to a Rotel pre & massive amp. I asked for a cd, like a yo yo I forgot to bring some in from the car. The sales rep proceeded to tell me he has the system hooked up to some computerized mp3 system running through the Rotels, and proceeded to play some Boston, and then some Coltrane, never even asking us what we would like to hear. This turned out to be an even worse experience than the HT audition. The sound it was turning out, and I'm not exaggerating was no better then a semi decent boom box.

My nephew and I walked away from that store uninspired, its no wonder the general public has no clue what were making the big fuss about when we talk about our systems with admiration and passion.

Tom

[Audio Flynn]

We ended up at what I believed to be a competent high end stereo/HT boutigue.

+++++++++++++++++++

I just walk out if the guys are in the least bit irritating. And generally do not explain why to them. They most likely would validate their ignorance by getting lippy.

I have only met maybe 4 audio sales guys in the past 10 years or so that had more product knowledge than myself. I do not get out much.

MP3 through a demo system? UNBELEIVEABLE

Sounds like something stupid Best Buy would do.

[cleandan]

When doing auditions I have found that a COMPLETE check of the equipment in question is of the first order. Make sure the tone controls are in the neutral position, the loudness is turned off, and any other processor pass throughs are bypassed if possible. Next you must check that BOTH speakers are actually hooked up. Also make sure that the speakers that are running are not conflicting with some different speakers in the same room. I have seen many systems set up with one model on the left and another on the right, and often not even the same size/style too boot. While checking the speaker hook up look to see if they are connected the same and not out of phase. Now that the system you are interested in is hooked up, do a test runs. Check that the speakers in question are actually running. Then check that NO other speakers are running, especially a sub woofer. All but the best audio stores have this problem. So many things are being swapped in and out so often, coupled with employees who really do not care, as well as customers who must fool around with things they should not, that you get a very mixed bag of results. The point is, NEVER sit down expecting things to be set up to optimum conditions unless you are in a very high end store.

[cleandan]

Yeah, I used to walk away too, then I decided to help the guy with honest, polite, constructive criticism. For instance, when I went to audition the new Yamaha RXV1 years ago, the thing was barely hooked up at all. I played with the buttons until the sales guy made his way over. I asked if I could hear the RXV1 and he replied that the (RXV-whatever) was hooked up and sounded pretty close to the new system. I said I was not interested in the (RXV???) and asked again if I could hear the RXV1. He said it will take a while to get it hooked up...I said I'll wait. 20 minutes later, and four other salesmen later, they finally had it "hooked up". Now remember, this is in the high end surround sound room that has two other systems set up total, not thirty different amps, DVD's and so on. He turned it on and he actually had ONLY the rear surrounds hooked up. I asked about that and he said that I should be able to hear the amp good enough. This is when the constructive criticism came out. I very politely, and quite restrained in manner, explained to the sales guy that I was a serious customer who is not interested in wasting my time, let alone his. I asked if he would by a new car after only being allowed to open the drivers door, and not actually get in a drive one bit. Of course he said no. I then asked if I had been polite and patient with him, and again the answer was yes. Then I asked if any other customers had waited 40 minutes to hear anything in the building, let alone one particular system, to which he said no. I then said that after waiting patiently for 40 minutes, to hear a particular system, set up in a particular room that is designed for surround sound systems, I was completely let down by the efforts he had given in hooking the system up so poorly. I told him I had waited to hear the surround sound this system had to offer, not two rear surround speakers hooked to the A side main output. I then asked how the heck I was supposed to even consider buying anything from him after such poor service, and no real audition to base any decisions upon...to which he said he was sorry in the standard salesman tone. I told him that I had already researched the system completely. I knew the specs, had read reviews, and now just needed to actually hear the thing to make the final decision...I was here to buy this thing tonight if it sounded right. All this was said in a polite, calm manner that was truthful and matter of fact in nature. I then said I hoped he had learned something tonight and that there would be no sale of any kind at this time. When you just walk away the untrained salesman gets no feedback about what actually went wrong...and they usually never get any better because of this. By being polite and telling them why you are dissatisfied (within reason mind you) they can then learn from it, or remain the same, the choice is up to them, but they have been given the opportunity to learn.

[AnalOg]

What I believe happens, the saleman gets into that judge a book by its cover syndrome. In his eyes we may have not looked serious to him so he just costed along in the presentation, big mistake, we may not have been serious last night but once were done making our rounds the decision on were to buy is who gave the best show.

Tom

[Audio Flynn]

A professional salesman considers all customers to be of eaqual value until "qualified".

In a limited number of quetions humbly asked, these guys should be able to tell if you need a needle for a 1973 Maganvox console or are motivated to buy a $ 5000 pair of speakers.

Most just put forth zero effort or intelligence in the qualification process.

[meuge]

It's kind of strange. I always thought that it was my age that made salesmen write me off as someone who isn't worth pursuing as a customer, but apparently I am not alone.

Recently I watched a few scenes from the Matrix on a Klipsh RF-3 system, powered by a lowly $350 Pioneer receiver, with an HSU VTF-2 as a sub, and it was smooth, detailed and powerful... definitely not painfully bright.

A lot depends on room acoustics, and a variety of other variables. Now I may be the only person in the world who isn't impressed with Denon gear, but I would still think that their top receivers could hold their own.

[Deang]

"First up was RF35 series fronts, centers & sourounds, along with the Klipsch 12 inch sub, model escpes me. Denon flagship DVD player & receiver were the front end sources. Watching a scene from the Matrix almost made me want to run out the room, so bright and edgy man did it hurt, I was very unimpressed."

I think Klipsch should start using the ears of the fine women at Klipsch to voice these things -- I'm not kidding.

[Colin]

the cost of the high end systems surprizes me as much as their average sound-

did you buy the unit Cleanman, 'cause you don't sound like a buyer to me?

DeanG, why do you have to be so right about everything (even my Khorns have a sharp 8-9kHz bounce)?

[Deang]

I actually denied the existance of the 9Khz spike, until Shawn and Al proved me wrong. I'm wrong more than I care to admit.

[cleandan]

Thanks Colin, I can understand the desire to see most customers as tire kickers, because that is what a bunch of customers do. I, along with most other audio afflicted souls, do go looking and listening on occasion just for kicks, or to see what is new. When I am tire kicking however, I rarely ask the sales staff for help, never ask the sales staff to rearrange things just for me, and would never ask for them to completely hook up a system on a whim...they have better things to do than cater to me at that time. When I do decide to purchase, then I am expecting the sales staff to help me with service, especially when I am looking at the higher end equipment they have to offer. Concerning the buyer/not buyer position, as you so eloquently hinted towards, I ask that you do a little homework before throwing the gauntlet. Check a persons profile, it is there for a reason. I am not a prolific audio purchaser, but I play with what I can afford...when I can afford it. To directly answer your question, no I did not purchase the RXV1 at that time. During the interim after the lousy service my personal situation changed and money was no longer available. When the RXZ1 came out I was again ready to purchase, and did so when the time was right. Have a great day Colin

[Chris Robinson]

----------------

On 1/11/2005 10:13:01 PM Audio Flynn wrote:

A professional salesman considers all customers to be of eaqual value until "qualified".

In a limited number of quetions humbly asked, these guys should be able to tell if you need a needle for a 1973 Maganvox console or are motivated to buy a $ 5000 pair of speakers.

Most just put forth zero effort or intelligence in the qualification process.

----------------

I've been a salesman for 25 years, and I used to do three day sales seminars to new guys entering the profession. The first day of the seminar was deprogramming these guys of commonly-held beliefs about selling.

The first distinction I help them make is "selling" vs. "peddling". Anybody can "peddle", and unfortunately, this is what most people think of when the word "salesman" is uttered. Peddlers just hurl stuff at you and see what sticks. This is what I usually see in the Best Buys of the world. It is a lengthy process that involves a lot of luck and usually a very low yield rate.

Selling is actually much easier than peddling. It basically involves letting a potential customer feel comfortable enough to enable you to ask some questions about what his needs are. A sales guy needs to know his product line inside and out as well. Then it's just working hard to determine if your products or services can help him out.

If your product isn't going to work for him, it is best to explain why it won't help him, offer an alternative and give him the option of changing his requirements. If he doesn't or can't, thank him for stopping by and LET HIM GO. Give him a suggestion or two about where he can find what he needs if you know it. Treat him like you would your father or brother. The honestly and forthrightness will probably impress him and bring him back again if his needs changes.

I always tell the guys, "if you're talking, you're not learning anything." It's amazing to me that most BB (etc.) folks always get this process backwards.

Giving the guy a critique is a nice thing to do. All that's required on his end is a willingness to listen and improve, which also requires depth of character, something that is not always in plentiful supply with floor people.

[dodger]

Dean: From a number of articles I've read, there is a difference in what males and females hear. One hears highs better than the other. The other hears lows better.

In response to the topic, Customer Service in too many areas has gone down the tubes.

Sales Clerks act like they are doing you a favor by taking your money and getting items to you.

It doesn't help when staff are over - worked read scheduled for too many hours to talk.

Then we have Voice Mail, Menus, sub-menus, sub-menus of the menus. Fax, email that is half read.

And a number of Companies share information if you complain about service or products - it's like a blacklist.

That's a part of the reason why I contact a Supervisor when I get very good service. It lets the Boss know why you will be returning and also hopefully gets passed to the Employee so that they know how they handle things is appreciated.

But checking on something with a number of Companies is why I have Speaker-Phones. I can get some things done while waiting.

Maybe that's a part of the reason that a number of us like Vintage: Nostalgia and today, face to face or some direct contact with a human.

I give a Company 48 hours to at least acknowledge receipt of email. After that I go elsewhere. 48 hours is a stretch, but I know some are busy.

dodger

[Colin]

Bravo, Chris, unconsciously incompetent amateurs give the sales profession a bad name bosses gouging professionals weaken the field further: I didnt sell, I helped people buy big difference - and was always in the top quarter of any sales force...

clean Dan, did you buy the new version at that shop? I am not picking on you, I used to tell the sales people that not everybody is a customer, their job is to weed out the ones who are...

[cleandan]

Colin, yes I did. I had gone there to check out the new version. I already did a bunch of research on the thing via internet avenues, and now needed to hear it to make the final decision. The salesman was very helpful. He hooked up the whole thing (it was new enough at the store that they did not have it set up yet). I went in on a weekday and found out it was not hooked up. The sales guy did the right thing, by me anyway. He told me what the situation was and then made a reasonable offer. He let me know he would be working that weekend, then said he would hook the thing up himself, and he would call me when all was ready so I could come hear it...good job in my book. This guy was completley different than the others I had encountered at this store...by the way, he now manages the sales force there too. Anyway, I went there when we agreed to meet, he was there, the RXZ1 was all hooked up to gear very similar to mine as we had discussed earlier, I listened for about 30-60 minutes, and then purchased. I do wish I had played with the remote more though. I really do not like the RXZ1 remote at all. I don't hate it, but you can see hate from here. I will say that half of the sale that day came directly from the salesmans efforts. He sold the unit to me by playing it to me, not just letting me listen to whatever they had to offer. If I were buying a lesser receiver I would have not expected to get service like this. When buying in the area of new RXZ1 however, this guy understood that I was looking for more than something that simply "worked" when turned on, and he took the time to demonstrate the gears abilities.