topfueltom Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 I will thank you. GO PATS!!!! TFT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 9:46:24 PM topfueltom wrote: ...We should get a group of cornerhorn owners together (like you do with bike owners) here in Ca, or all over for the matter and have corner parties, hahaha, serious though!! ---------------- Take a look at the post titled "Southern California Hornheads." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Yes, take a look and join that forum. I think it would be a good thing for us to get together to hear different speaker/amp/preamp/whatever combos. Tom's been teasing me with his VRD and Juicy Peach for several months . We can have a get together at my house sometime, though my livingroom layout is not good for too big a crowd...only one small sweet spot . Nonetheless, it is doable. Let me also add that Craig will soon be doing a Scott 233 I just picked up, so some time in the future, we'll have another amp to check out. I've always been curious of the differences between the 222D with the 7189 output tubes and the 233 with the 7591. As to the So Cal Hornhead meetings at Dr. Edgar's place, I usually miss the invites to them because he posts them on audio asylum. I was trying to research something and found the invite for yesterday's meeting just in time, though Bruce did join the newly created Yahoo forum, so maybe he'll post there also. As long as he refrains from Klipsch criticism . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Well Andy, you know what Dr. Bruce thinks of Khorns right? I heard that when he was asked how to improve them he said "Got a chainsaw?" Comments like those don't settle too well with me. If he really did say that I think it shows a complete lack of respect for PWK and his genius. I think Edgar is quite brilliant in his own right, but once again, if true I think he should keep comments like those to himself. It really turns some people off no matter how good his gear may be. JMHO you know. That's very gracious and hospitable of you Andy. Throw out a few dates to let me know when you'd like to get together. As I said, I'll bring the VRD's and Peach. We can have a get together at my house sometime too. I know my wife will want me to wait until our remodel is complete though. And that could be a while. Congrats on the 233. That is one sweet amp. You'll really like it I am sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 I took what Bruce said as humerous. I have a lot of admiration for the man and what he does. I appreciate the opportunity to go to his meetings and talk with and learn from the others there like retired engineers, working ones and serious horn building hobbyists. I go there because I like him and I can learn from most people there. WHat he said did not affect my ability to come home and put on some music and fully enjoy listening to my KHorns. We were talking about some mods to the KHorns, and one did involve a saw, but now you got me thinking should I trust him? He didn't say chain saw, hee hee. But he was talking about replacing the bass horn with an EV and widening the throat to the original size of way back when. Any mods would involve me taking the KHorns there and that would allow us to do a comparison to his horns...that would be interesting! I am pretty open to almost any Saturday or Sunday...just gotta get the joint cleaned up a bit ...I do appreciate your willingness to bring the equipment as well. That's the best way to preview what my own pair can sound like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binkt Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 12:52:09 AM topfueltom wrote: Hi, Andy, The Cabs are finished but not by him, he just fixes things around the house I beleive anyways. The cleaning lady most likely kept the dust off them on a regular basis and gave them a waxing. what do you suggest I look for on tube amps for them? ---------------- Hi Tom, really too bad I am no longer in So Cal but up here in the Pacific Northwest I have been enjoying the Transcendent Sound SEOTL amp. A grand couple of watts with tubes and no output transformers makes my Khorns sing. A transformer based "passive " preamp will set you up great and the price is not too crazy. There are many more which will do the job but tubes without transformers to match impedance is a new playing field. Good Luck Binkt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 binkt, Do you ever wander down Central California way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binkt Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 ---------------- On 2/3/2005 6:37:35 PM fini wrote: binkt, Do you ever wander down Central California way? ---------------- Sometimes I visit San Louis Obispo for work related stuff and my brother lives in Pleasanton (Bay Area). Don't get down often but always looking for a reason. Latest time the Corvair fan toss in Palm Beach could not be ignored. Thanks for asking Binkt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Speaking of Bruce Edgar, I have never met him, only read stuff by him, and I formed an opinion based on his written words. I think that he bad-mouths anything that he considers his "competition". Upto and including PWK and his products which he still has to compete with. Granted, Edgar gets "nailed" with alot of direct questions pertaining to PWK and his products, and answering those "off the cuff" is certainly to be expected, but it's HIS PUBLISHED STATEMENTS and articles that specifically are aimed at others that tend to make me mad. While PWK complained from time-to-time about the knock-offs of the Khorn, he never once mentioned any names that I know of. Not so with Edgar, he names names and bad-mouths others work like Dinsdale and the like. I also wonder if any of Edgar's work will stand the test of time like PWK's. Will we be listening to Edgarhorns 50 years from now? I doubt it. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Maybe TBrennan, NOSValves or Parrot will comment? I know that they have all heard Edgarhorns. Has anyones else? If so, your comments please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
binkt Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Likewise, I would not know Dr. Edgar from you if we met on the street. However, if you have listened to his product you would realize the man delivers the goods. If Edgarhorns are not listened to in the forseeable future the reproduction of music will not be what it could. His editorial positions not withstanding. Binkt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 It is not right to bad-mouth other's published work in a self-promoting way. PERIOD. I don't care how good his horns sound - I won't support this type of unprofessional behavior with my wallet! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I have both met Bruce Egar and heard his famous Edgarhorn Titans. This occured two years ago at the Midwest Audio Fest. I anticipated listening to these speakers with excitement since I had heard so many great things about them. My expectations were sky high. Unfortunately, when I heard the speakers, they did not exactly make me want to rush out and replace my K-horns. In the room they were setup in, it was admitted that they could not get the room to sound good and that the Titans sounded better the previous year. It was kinda funny that when they started tearing the setup down, and removed the thick blankets from the large glass windows behind the speakers, the sound opened up and it instantly sounded better. I was not the only one that noticed that. I have no doubt that the Edgarhorns are very good speakers. I also have no doubt that Klipschorns are also very good speakers. I am tending to believe that once you reach a high level of performance, it becomes personal preference as to which speakers are better than others. Some people prefer Klipsch, Edgarhorn, JBL, Altec, Avant Garde, Oris, Dunlavy, Theil, Apogee, Magnepan, B&W, etc., etc. etc. As for Mr. Edgar himself, he was a very pleasant person and didn't seem to show any animosity toward Klipsch products. I have heard that he has a lot of respect for PWK. In fact, he seemed to often offer advice on how to modify K-horns to improve performance (something that is discussed frequently on this BB). I think the "chainsaw" comment may have been a light hearted reference to the most common mod he recommended -- enlarging the woofer slot in the bass bin chamber. Apparently K-horns have been made with two different slot sizes and he obviously thought the larger slot size worked best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Originally 6"x13" to the now 3"x13". I used to know why, but don't anymore. Suffice it to say, there had to be a good reason, and we can take great comfort in knowing PWK knew a few things about the bass horn he designed. I'm sure PK would have had some other suggestions for Dr. Edgar and his chainsaw. I don't know all that much, but maybe the change was made to increase pressure, to help the sagging response in the midbass. It may also have been done because of the change to the K-33. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Tom, Welcome to the board. We are nearly neighbors. I am in Riverside. Your quest for a tube amp might be narrowed a bit. What is your price range? Separates or integrated? Receiver or integrated? I have a Fisher 400 that needs a complete rebuild that I would practically give you. If you then sent it to NOSVALVES to get rebuilt, you would get out of the deal with a real nice sounding tube receiver for just a little more than buying a beater and then needing to get it rebuilt. I loved the way the 400 sounded but parked it when a tuner cap started going out. I have since moved on to separate units and the fisher is just taking up shelf space. Congrats on the Khorns, I have Fortes myself, my room is too small for Khorns to breathe in though I would love to have at least a pair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 The horn cavity throat opening was reduced from 6x13 to 3x13 in the early 60's when PWK switched to the current Eminence K33E, and it was found to have a PEAK somewhere around 400Hz, and the reduction of opening smoothed it out a bit. I have heard it both ways, that there was a PEAK with the K33E or there was a DIP in the response, PWK remarked in an interview that there was a trough, I believe. I would guess a PEAK, because from my experiments with different cavity openings, the smaller the cavity opening (note this is NOT the throat which he did not change), the LESS higher frequencies tend to go through the horn with the K33E. But I don't have any test equipment, so I cannot truly verify anything except by ear. Bruce Edgar did (and rightfully so in my experience) suggest that the cavity opening be the original 6x13 size for use with 8 Ohm drivers. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 D-Man, you're right about the opening to the throat cavity. That was one things Bruce mentioned doing, at the same time replacing the LF driver. Do you know what year Klipsch changed that opening size? I have not read Dr. Edgar's publications, but his comments were light-hearted and directed somewhat at me...I took it that way and was playful about it myself. But he strikes ma as a scientist. He will listen to something (I think he was convinced that vinyl sounds better than digital by listening and changed his position). I will one day take my K-Horns over there and ask to have an A/B with his horns. It's possible that some will prefer the K-Horns and others may prefer the Edgarhorns, after all, there are even some who prefer Bose! I just hope I keep my preferrence after such a comparison. Cal Blacksmith..I'm in Yorba Linda, not too far from Riverside myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 ---------------- On 2/4/2005 2:51:51 PM AndyKubicki wrote: Cal Blacksmith..I'm in Yorba Linda, not too far from Riverside myself... ---------------- Andy, I work in Long Beach so I drive by you TWICE a work day I am having a party in 2 weeks, just a bunch of blacksmiths gathering to look at my $100,000 investment in a building and shop, a "open shop party" if you will. There will be lots of food and fun but not much stereo listening. I could perhaps sneek away to play a few cuts if you are interested. Pm me for more info if you would like to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Andy, I want to say 1963 based on my recollection, so we all know what that's worth! It is printed in a magazine article posted by Gil, which says Klipsch went to Eminence in 1970, but the opening was changed earlier during the CTS days (according to the article), so that blows that supposition. So you bring up a point that we really don't know for sure. But I believe that LarryC (?) has a pair of '63 Khorns that had the smaller throat cavity opening along with some sort of throat inclusions that he posted about, although again - my memory is involved here. I read the Eminence woofer change as instigating the smaller throat cavity opening here on the forum and took it for gospel, and tend to go with it rather than the magazine article, which did not present much detail, which indicates to me that it should be taken with a grain of salt? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Ahh, here it is: Larry's original post and it was 1962! Restoring the standard bass horn throat in a '62 pair of Klipschorns DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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