jpm Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Im serious. I have around 350 CD's that I've collected over the years and most sound really bright on my RF7's. Thank God I have bass and treble controls because I've started using them a lot. I seem to be rolling the trebel left of flat by 1/4. This has nothing to do with my amp. I have a neutral, if not slightly warm amp. This has to do with lousy recording studio work. We should expect better. Columbia Records tends to have the best sounding CD's, but not always. I guess my rant is that after spending a ton of money on this hobby, and tweeking to the last detail, we're at the mercy of the dude that mixed the music we listen to. Somehow it just dosen't seem fair. I'm calling the WAAAAAMMMBULANCE right away!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Take a look at the upstream electronics. What type of receiver/processor are you using? Are you using the DACs in the CD player or the receiver/processor? Is your room highly relective or on the dead side? The best ways to deal with your problem are to work on room treatments and have DeanG replace the capacitors in your crossovers. Changes in electronics are also a possibility, but will cost more than the other recommendations. Bill PS: I have RF-7s in a room that is not too reflective. The crossovers have been modified by DeanG. I listen to CDs and SACDs via i.link going to a Pioneer 49TXi. Results are excellent. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 My room is very nice now for music listening. Not bright at all, but not dead like so many retail "listening rooms". Some of my newer, well recorded music sounds so wonderful it brings tears to my eyes. This is about crappy mixing on certain labels... in fact most labels. I can rectify the problem by using the tone controls, but it seems a shame to do it. I've finally given up and now will shape the sound to my ears rather than suffer as a purist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 One thing I've noticed, after listening to many LP's recently, is HOW LOUD CD"S ARE ALL THE TIME. WHatever happened to dynamic RANGE?!?! Seems like modern producers just want to squeeze as much loudness as possible all the time onto modern discs. I think my older LP's are much more ear-friendly, despite their lack of bass, channel separation, and surface noise. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 I agree with Bill on this one. You know that RF-7s can be notoriously bright depending on what you run, and there simply cannot that many CDs in your collection where that amount of adjustment should be necessary on your controls. My guess is that you are not getting all you can out of these extremely fine speakers. Early on in my RF-7s existence, the majority of my CDs also sounded too bright or sometimes simply "bad." Adjustment of the treble control was needed. Several upgrades later including room treatments, Dean's crossovers, a tubed CD player, better preamp, and tubed monoblocs have solved that for over 95% of my CDs. Sure, some CDs are poorly recorded and/or processed and will always sound bad But, I am bit skeptical that this is simply poor mixing, recording, and/or processing for 2/3 of your CDs. Ok, your room is nicely treated. Remind us, what processor, amp & source are you running? Also, have you had the crossovers tweaked? Michael, I respectfully disagree with you on this one. Sure, vinyl and CDs sound very different on my setup, but with a nice source (i.e. again touting my Jolida), a large number of modern CDs have all the range you'll ever need. But ear-friendly?? Yes, as a general proposition, my vinyl is more ear-friendly than CDs, but running tubes in multiple places in the setup eases much of the CD "edge." That is, inserting tubes in the equation makes CDs more ear-friendly (as well as some other sonic benefits). Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 OK, my room is as good as it's going to get. I'm not putting acoustical junk on the ceiling, and I have no room for bass traps. My stereo is in the living room - no home theater. I have a 15 year old Denon CD player, a sub, and a Denon PMA2000 integrated amp. Yeah, it's not tubes, but I don't want tubes (don't like the heat, the price, the loss of bass, the hassle, the maintainence, etc). To be honest, I don't want to spend any more money on this stereo unless it'll yield a HUGE difference in sound and satisfaction. I emailed DeanG about his crossovers but he never got back with me. I think he thinks I'm a crackpot or something. I'm not, I just want decent sound without spending $10,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 1:46:08 PM jpm wrote: I emailed DeanG about his crossovers but he never got back with me. I think he thinks I'm a crackpot or something. ---------------- That wouldn't deter Dean in the slightest, believe me. He's just been busy. As I recall in my youth, the thing everyone always did with their stereos was turn the treble all the way up, and the bass all the way up. I think people tend to get more sophisticated after years of experience and change their preferences. Plus as people get older, sometimes treble causes them pain. I'd use those tone controls 'cause that's what they're there for. If all your CDs sounded bad, there'd obviously be something wrong, but since some sound sensational, it seems reasonable that you are indeed reacting to typically over-bright mastering. You didn't say what genre of music you typically listen to. I find, broadly speaking, that classical is better mastered than pop. If you get a CD player that rolls off the top end a little, the masking will help with your overly bright CDs, but your just-right CDs will also be affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 1:36:16 PM colterphoto1 wrote: One thing I've noticed, after listening to many LP's recently, is HOW LOUD CD"S ARE ALL THE TIME. WHatever happened to dynamic RANGE?!?! Seems like modern producers just want to squeeze as much loudness as possible all the time onto modern discs. I think my older LP's are much more ear-friendly, despite their lack of bass, channel separation, and surface noise. Michael ---------------- Airplay on the radio is responsible for some of the lack of dynamics and higher volume. Louder sounds better as a perception. You will stop at the station with the higher volume. Poor Recording Engineers that have already had some hearing damage and their skills are poor contribute. But it's a dual ladder - one has the dynamic range cut and volume level in Mixdown louder, the next one does the same. Remember way back when CDs were first coming around? great dynamic range, can't be damaged like LPs, you can get fingerprints and oil on them with no damage. Just like cable tv and no commercials, bowflex anyone? dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 There are some CDs that are poorly mixed, but better lables rarely have a problem. Contemporary music has too much digital compression applied in the mix so it will sound good on boom boxes and especially in cars. For classical music, I prefer Telarc SACDs and CDs or DG. Classical rock is mixed better IMO. Current stuff is usually crapola. Re: Electronics on the RF-7s- The RF-7s have the impedance dip from hell IMO. Sound & Vision put the minimum impedance at 2.8 ohms. Other publications put the minimum impedance a few tenths of an ohm higher. Many amplifiers cannot produce the needed current to get flat frequency respone. Every time I have put a better amp on the RF-7s, new information appears on the same old recordings. Bass has also improved. I currently use a Sunfire Signature Stereo amp on the mains and a Sunfire CG II on the other 5 channels. The Pioneer is used only as a processor. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 As some have previously commented in another thread, the specs on your new Denon look pretty good. Have not heard one myself but my guess is that the Denon probably does a pretty good job, sound-wise, with the RF-7s (but Bill's comment on the quality of amps up the chain and the low-impedance is well-taken). As to relatively inexpensive improvements, my guess is that you could greatly improve your sound with Dean's crossovers and a different source. Dean's crossover mod makes a HUGE difference with the RF-7s (at a minimal expenditure). Recently, there was also a thread on CD players, and two names kept popping up - both tubed CD players. The AH! Njoe Tjoebs CD4000 w/upsampler, and the Jolida JD100A (which I own). Unmodded versions of both players are very good and are available under $1000. With tubed CD players, you install tubes once (in the output stage), and then forget about them for a long time. No real extra heat, etc. Just some thoughts. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 A Tale of One Recording. Once upon a time, I thought most of my CD's sounded.. well, craptacular. bright / hard / glary / glassy. LP was better but not by much, and in some cases, it was much worse! Then I got a recording which *really* sounded sour. Really sour. I thought to myself "There's NWIH DG/Arkiv would put out something which sounds *this* bad." This recording was DG/Arkiv's box set of Beethoven's Symphonies as played by Gardiner / Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique. It was really bad. Ear-frying. Intolerable. Just like Apples, Capitols, and Phase 4's. Harsh. Glary. Cold. That recording sent me on a four-month journey which culminated in choosing a far different amplifier than was my norm. You may wish to go into denial regarding upstream components, but there's one prime, undeniable fact: Klipsch speakers (and other horns) tend to be highly unforgiving of mediocre electronics. They're like miscroscopes. They're the most revealing thing I've ever heared -- and that's both very good, and very bad. An analysis of your entire system, from source to control to amplification is in order. You may have to swallow pride and even maybe take a hit -- the end result is well worth it. I did the same. I took a long, hard look at my system, in a logical, procedural manner. I had to swallow some prejudices I had, and had to let go of some icons of a time long gone. The end result, as they say, was well worth the effort. Now, most CD's sound either okkay or really good, I have *very* few that I'd consider worthless, and those are on hole-in-the-wall lables that no one's ever heared of, probably mixed on a PC and recorded via 44khz PCM onto hdd's. But from the big houses? Not in my estimation. The funny thing is, every improvement I made to my rig, it wasn't the CDP that showed the biggest imrpovements.. it was the turntable which did so. O.o As for tubes, that's the choice many of us have taken. I won't try to convince you either way -- but there are some dman fine SS amps out there. But just because it's tubes doesn't mean it's good. One of my prejudices regarded a highly regarded little amp from the late 50's which I ran for 4 years and frankly loved -- but in the ultimate analysis, it was the root of all my sonic problems. I had to let go. I stayed in tubes, but went far, far astray from 'The Norm'. The trick is, it's *cheaper* to do this right with glass than it is with sand, at least in the majority of cases. As for tube bass being lacking.. sorry.. but I have to disagree 110% there. Again, wether tube or SS, it's not the devices used, it's *how* they're used that'll make or break the amp. And finally.. you don't have to spend big cash at all. You can, if you have it -- that's fine for the economy and whatnot -- but if you go used/vintage, the bang-for-buck factor goes up dramatically. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 I'm willing to put a better SS amp to these speakers, to a point. No more than $3000 MAX! But for that amount of money I'll bet I hear very little difference. I'm told by a lot of knowledgeable folks that my PMA2000 is a very good amp with nice high current. But what do I know? I think I'll go buy the Jolida CD player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 JPM, The 15 year old technology in your CD player might be partly at fault. I agree that many CDs are mixed by deaf monkeys that only know one direction on the gain control! Recently on the recommendation of forum members, I picked up a Phillips 963SA CD/DVD/SACD player with upsampling for about $150. It clearly bests both my old Teac CD player and my two year old $1000 Yamaha on Redbook playback. It makes some of those marginal recordings listenable. The horrid ones, they are still horrid. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 I wouldn't regard a Denon as being overy bright sounding. I think that your original suspicion is right on the money, there IS a great deal of bad recording going on out there... I've found that if it's a POPULAR artist/group/whatever, WATCH OUT as the recording may be "boosted" in certain frequencies to sound "good" on a car stereo. Sort of "targeting your market" with the studio mixer. Sort of like what they used to do with the AM radio stuff back in the old days, so it sounded good "in the car". DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 DeanG usually ges right back to potential customers, but he is one busy entrepreneur. Rattle his cage again; if needed, swear a bit. Dean is a good person that does good work. His speciallty is RF-7s, although he does a wide range of crossovers. You will be surprised at the bang for the buck. The crossover mod was the best money I have spent. Try toeing the speakers in a bit and small changes in placement. There can be significant differences in sound. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 Guys, I envy most of you and your systems. I really do. Like I said, I think I'll start with a Jolida 100 CD player and see what happens. Thanks BTW, when I listen to smooth jazz on my separate fm tuner, the sound is much warmer and more listenable/enjoyable. Hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 As usual, nice post Thoriated Tiger. I agree that many SS amps run horns as nicely as some of the tubes. Heck, my Cornwall is run quite nicely by a twenty-year old NAD amp. Also, agree with your comments on bass response with nice tube amps. Do you think any bass is lacking by my RF-7s being run my rebuilt Mark IIIs??? No. The same goes with respect to my 8B running the Belles. BTW, JPM, when we all jump in like this - its because we are all trying to help. Also, because we've been there. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 2:03:44 PM D-MAN wrote: I wouldn't regard a Denon as being overy bright sounding. I think that your original suspicion is right on the money, there IS a great deal of bad recording going on out there... I've found that if it's a POPULAR artist/group/whatever, WATCH OUT as the recording may be "boosted" in certain frequencies to sound "good" on a car stereo. Sort of "targeting your market" with the studio mixer. Sort of like what they used to do with the AM radio stuff back in the old days, so it sounded good "in the car". DM ---------------- This is where it gets *really* sticky. The problem I was having was hard/harsh/glary at the mids and highs. Mostly would show up on recordings which have the gain turned way the hades up. Like most pop music (four clicks on my vol. control winds up at ~90db with hi-gain recordings! And yeah, I got my sp6 set on LO gain...grr.) Anyway.. My suspicion is that some amps simply "dig into" the incoming signal with more tenacity than others. Why do I say this? Cause when all hades would break loose, it sounded *exactly* like mis-tracking distortion! The impression I got is that my previous amps simply could *not* keep up with what was coming out of the sp6! I need to get a nice dual-trace scope and start playing around with this... I bet this effect can be seen as well as heared. Or maybe I'm just loco... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 Guys, I'm convinced my amp is not the problem. Granted, it's not the Mercedes of amps., but it's a darn good one. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 I just took a peak at the specs of the Denon PMA-2000. At 80 SS watts, it does not have the required power to run the RF-7s. It is like trying to power a big 4x4 pickup on an excellent 4 cyl engine. Some of the bright sound is really clipping IMO. How much clipping depends on how loud you play the music and your subwoofer crossover point etc. A good 200 watt amp will help. We have a consensus on the HT forum that 200 watts per channel is where the RF-7s open up on a solid state amp. (There are some that can do it on fewer watts.) Tube amps require fewer watts as they produce excellent current. A good 200 watt amp by B&K or Aragon will help. Used amps are also a possibilty. Bryston tranfers what is left on their 20 year warranty to the new owner. Sunfire tranfers the remainder of their 5 year warranty. Bill PS: JPM-In your position I would not buy an amp without first hearing the difference it makes. I would go to the nearest Klipsch dealer that stocks RF-7s and bring my own music. Have them play your music through a mid-fi Denon receiver, and then a good set of separates. You should hear a significant difference. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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