Frzninvt Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Don't knock some of the older CD players they will actually perform alot better than all but the most expensive universal DVD players when it comes to CD playback. I use a DBX DX5 CD player that is around 15 years old, it sounds fabulous plus it has the ability to compress or expand the signal if the CD is harsh or lacking. The ambience control can narrow or widen the soundstage. I find most if not all the newer CD's are way over-recorded - too much gain! I just activate the compression circuits and dial in how much I need to make it sound decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 it might be a very fine amplifier..... but perhaps not with klipsch speakers... an amplifier needs to have a good synergy with the speakers it's driving. i went through 6 or 7 different amps to come up with a "great" sound on my KLF-30's - even one tube amp.... i ended up with a carver professional ZR1000 digital amplifier that gives me 225 glorious watts of solid state power with a "warmer" almost tube-like top end.... even the early CD's from the 80's sound much better than with the other amplifiers that i tried http://www.carverpro.com/zramps.html IMHO - the component that will most affect the sound coming out of your speakers is the amplifier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 . I have a 15 year old Denon CD player, ++++++++++++ Certainly an issue. But as your Redbook playback system sounds better some CDs get worse. All of my WHO sounds uninspiring at this point in my system development. I am going to try the SACD of Tommy in the near future +++++++++++++++ I do not agree 80 watts is not enough. VRD monoblocks at 50 watts can blow you out of a large room with RF-7s. We did this configurqation last fall. Watts and SPL do not make things sound better. I have 3 Denon integrateds. They all have a very small window or sweet spot in volume dial location whre they sound OK. Higher or lower the soundstage and musical realism degrade. MY 6L6 amp sounds better for a much broader range in the CHorus IIs at peak watts of 30 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 2:24:22 PM MrMcGoo wrote: I just took a peak at the specs of the Denon PMA-2000. At 80 SS watts, it does not have the required power to run the RF-7s. It is like trying to power a big 4x4 pickup on an excellent 4 cyl engine. Some of the bright sound is really clipping IMO. How much clipping depends on how loud you play the music and your subwoofer crossover point etc. A good 200 watt amp will help. We have a consensus on the HT forum that 200 watts per channel is where the RF-7s open up on a solid state amp. (There are some that can do it on fewer watts.) Tube amps require fewer watts as they produce excellent current. A good 200 watt amp by B&K or Aragon will help. Used amps are also a possibilty. Bryston tranfers what is left on their 20 year warranty to the new owner. Sunfire tranfers the remainder of their 5 year warranty. Bill ---------------- Bill is right! your amplifier is clipping if you push it hard at all! the impedance dip in the lower frequencies of the RF-7's is drawing much more power than you have available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Dude, you don't need to spend $3000 on a good SS amp! I'd reccomemnd looking at some old Class A or A/B amps from Threshold, Forte and Nakamichi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 I also have the Philips 963 and can highly reccomend it if you can find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 More random thoughts. Some are commenting on the Denon integrated amp. While I still think a starting point may be the source (player) or the crossovers, I must admit that part of our problem is that this particular Denon is an unknown to most of us - that is, we have not heard others who have paired it up with Klipsch speakers - because it is new. All we know is that some prior Denons did not make for the best match for Reference, and the RF-7s are the most demanding Klipsch speakers that I am aware of (finicky). Number of comments on the SS power rating. While I'm the first to admit that my RF-7s did not really shine, solid state-wise, until I paired them up with my 200 watt Rotel, it just depends. There are some exceptions. There are some older high quality, high-current SS amps that could also run these RF-7s nicely. Specs often do not tell the entire story, and unless someone knowledgeable looked inside this baby- we really do not know for sure. At least this Denon is fairly heavy for 80 watts X 2 (a fairly good sign). Again, I'm not exactly defending this particular Denon - I just think we don't know enough about it yet. Also intermingled discussions of tube and SS watts - both are different. My 60 watt tube monoblocs can run with my 200 watt solid state amp. But a lesser quality 60 watt ss amp would not suit my tastes. What about the Denon's processor?? Often the pre is a bigger part of the overall sound than the amp. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Here is a Jolida JD-100 Tube CD upgraded telefunken tubes. for $650. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Used Aragon 28k Preamp -> $500 Used B&K Reference 200.2 or Aragon 8008 -> $1000 Used MSB Link III Gold DAC -> $500 Hearing the singer breathe and his/her lips touch -> priceless For me, the B&K amplifier (not 200.2, but 2020, which is actually not as good) made the biggest difference in terms of the warmth of the sound and the width of the soundstage. The Aragon preamp improved instrument separation and staging tremendously. Adding an offboard DAC made a huge difference in terms of perceived detail. I don't know a lot about tubes, but Klipsch speakers are extremely revealing of any imperfections in the solid-state equipment. Every upgrade I've undertaken has improved the sound considerably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 Forgive my ignorance, but what is a DAC and what does it do. Please answer in layman's terms... I'm not an engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 heck 2/3 of my CDs sound like CRAP..cause I hate the bands now hehehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 2:01:16 PM jpm wrote: I'm willing to put a better SS amp to these speakers, to a point. No more than $3000 MAX! But for that amount of money I'll bet I hear very little difference. I'm told by a lot of knowledgeable folks that my PMA2000 is a very good amp with nice high current. But what do I know? I think I'll go buy the Jolida CD player. ---------------- I believe I explained to you in a previous thread that Mixing Denon recievers and amps with Klipsch is not a good Idea, We tried a Denon AVR-3805 reciever and it sounded horrible on my bro's KG 5.5's, extremely bright and edgy. We use a Scott tube amp and it is wonderful. Its the amp bro, sorrty to say it, but its gotta go. Get a integrated tube amp like a Scott, Fisher,etc... and you will notice a huge diffrence in sound quality and warmth in the treble, no more screechy highs. Ive gone through many amps and recievers and ended up with tube monoblock amps, had my crossovers upgraded by Dean G and all is good, all my cd's no matter how badly mixed still sound very good, clean in the treble and with the addition of the RSW-15 sub, plenty of bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 Maybe you're right. So how do I go about finding a Scott or Fisher tube amp without buying off ebay or someplace I can't trust? I also don't want to buy a "project". I'm totally not into refurbing an old tube amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 I have thousands of LP, CD, tapes & about 100 SACD. The brutal fact is that 90% or more of the recordings out there (sound wise) SUCK. Its always been that way & I doubt its going to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch RF7 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 6:55:42 PM jpm wrote: Maybe you're right. So how do I go about finding a Scott or Fisher tube amp without buying off ebay or someplace I can't trust? I also don't want to buy a "project". I'm totally not into refurbing an old tube amp. ---------------- Actually, if you dont want the hassle of tubes, and believe me when i say they are a huge hassle! Biasing, constantly having to swap dead tubes, warm up time and etc.. I would go with a vintage solid state 2 channel reciever. Such as a Marantz, they sound great and have a nice warm treble, awesome bass and sound great on Klipsch speakers. You can pick up a nice Marantz reciever on Ebay for a great price. Here is a 2275 at $50 with a day left, 2 channels and 75watts per channel of pure, high current power that will drive those RF-7's effortlessly and very clean. Will be more than youll need for those RF-7's with Rock, movies, Jazz, Classical and whatever it may be, they will thump!!! ALso, dont worry about buying off Ebay, I have purchased over $5k worth of stuff over the past few months alone from ebay, and have had not one problem. Everything has been great and delivered quickly. Here is the auction on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50591&item=5747339726&rd=1 Here is the specs: http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/2275.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 I'm deeply sorry. I try to keep up on the mail, but it's hard. Sometimes I reply, and days later I reply again to the same email -- asking if I replied! Worse yet, everyone thinks I'm some kind of filter/electronics guru, so I have to spend time replying to many emails with, "I'm sorry, but you have me confused with a filter/electonics guru." I'm typically walking dead when I get around to reading everything that's piling up. The Denon unit came up in another thread and I checked it out. It seems very nice, and should do great with the RF-7's. As far as the DVD player goes, pull it out as soon as you can. Improvements in DAC's have come so far that even a $60.00 no name DVD player from Best Buy will sound better (I'm not kidding). Some of you probably remember that my networks for the RF-7 were built point-to-point on boards that sat outside of the speakers, using AudioCap PPT Thetas. Those RF-7's are now in possession of my son, who decided he wanted them in the cabinets. "No can do" I told him, unless I rebuild them on smaller boards -- so I did. I ended up building the LF section on one side of the oak, and the HF section on the other side. I then drilled holes and tied strapped them to one of the cross braces. This ended being very cool looking. At any rate ... ...I didn't want Austin to be without tunes while I did the rebuild, so I lent him a set of Auricap loaded RF-7 networks that I had just got done rebuilding. After he loaded them up and did some listening -- there was some interesting discussion between us -- he hears very good. After I finished rebuilding his boards I went over to do the install, and to have a healthy listen to the RF-7's using my standard rebuild. It was very depressing for me -- I should never have sold them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 1:09:53 PM jpm wrote: ...we're at the mercy of the dude that mixed the music we listen to. Somehow it just doesn't seem fair. ---------------- We ARE at the mercy of these 'dudes'. I wouldn't say 2/3 of my collection is unplayable on my Klipschorns. But I would say 15 to 20%. After I bought my Klipschorns I realised how bad the recording quality was on many CD's I owned. These CD's now reside with my upstairs system. Don't despair. CD recording quality is improving out of sight. Now probably 1 out of 5 of my CD purchases are ordinary. In the past the ratio was much higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 I can't believe all of the posts while I was typing -- yikes. A followup on Charles' comment. I agree that some older CD players might sound better than some of today's standard fare, but I think it's the exception rather than the rule -- especially when comparing to the standard fare from 15 years ago. The Denon unit is optimized for two channel sound, it's not an HT receiver. It's discreet, and has some heft to it. I think 80 watts should be enough unless you are a complete volume freak. If it was mine, I certainly wouldn't give up on it. Besides, I had my Klipschorns hooked up to my Daughter's very inexpensive Sherwood two channel integrated with a discreet amplifer section, and it sounded alarmingly good. The least expensive option is letting me rework the networks. You shouldn't do anything until you do that. I'm not being arrogant -- it's just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 7:11:02 PM Klipsch RF7 wrote: Actually, if you dont want the hassle of tubes, and believe me when i say they are a huge hassle! Biasing, constantly having to swap dead tubes, warm up time and etc. ---------------- Whoa there! Dead tubes are hardly a constant problem. Most last for many years, or even many many years. The exception would be a badly designed amp or a badly out of spec amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 jpm, You asked what a DAC is/does. First, it's an acronym that means Digital to Analog Converter. It a nutshell, takes the bits, all the ones and zeros on the CD and converts them into analog voltages/frequencies, to move the speaker cone and be the music we hear. There's lots that goes on in between (lots of math and science). The more detail in information you would like, the longer a post it wil be. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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