delano Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 JPM, I was in the same boat about a month ago. I was ready to give up on my heresy's and buy some "laid back" speakers. Almost all of my cd's were harsh sounding. I did not want to get into tubes, after all the music is my hobby not the equipment. I thought that if I buy Tubes it would be too much work. Well I could not have been more wrong. I ended up buying a Shanling STP-80 tube integrated amp and a Shanling cdt-80 Tube cd player to go with my Heresy's. I am now becoming re familiarised with my cd collection. The worst of them can now be enjoyed. The music has opened up and is warm and lush. I know everybody talks of the vintage stuff for warmth and budget but let me tell you my Shanling has all the convenience of modern technology and the warmth of tubes. I do not need to warm it up. I can put it on and use almost right away. Sure, it sounds better after it gets up to temperature but it still blows away my ss stuff. As for the tubes, my amp has auto biasing so I do not have to mess around with that. When I need new tubes I can just buy the same type and plug them in . They only need to be biased if I go with a different type. Anyways I not trying to talk anybody into anything, I am just relating my experience to you and the forum. I would also like to thank everybody on the forum for knocking the tube thing into my thick skull. I am really a new convert. Delano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 2:01:47 PM 3dzapper wrote: JPM, The 15 year old technology in your CD player might be partly at fault. I agree that many CDs are mixed by deaf monkeys that only know one direction on the gain control! Recently on the recommendation of forum members, I picked up a Phillips 963SA CD/DVD/SACD player with upsampling for about $150. It clearly bests both my old Teac CD player and my two year old $1000 Yamaha on Redbook playback. It makes some of those marginal recordings listenable. The horrid ones, they are still horrid. Rick ---------------- I can second Rick's reply. I just replaced a 15 YEAR OLD DENON CD PLAYER (DCD 1400 - second from top of the line player when new in 1989, gold feet, real pretty) with a $225 used Philips 963 and oh what a difference!! Try this first. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 In my previous post I said CD's are getting better. I should have expanded my comment to include the thought that in my opinion, the best CD's are now approaching my better quality vinyl albums. I must admit I have been most impressed with 2 channel SACD. Less so with DVD/A - the reason possibly due to poorer material/mixes choosen for release rather than any intrinsic superiority of one format over the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthfreek Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I just read the entire thread and not one person asked for specific examples of some of these crappy sounding cds. There was the one mention about listening to smooth jazz on the tuner but that was it. Do your smooth jazz cds sound like crap? What if JPM has a bunch of Alan Lomax mono field recording from 1936? What if it's a bunch of Misfits or lo-fi punk cds? Does Dark Side Of The Moon sound good on your setup? Does Steely Dan sound good? If so then there's a bigger problem. My first suggestion would be for a moderately priced universal player in the 3-4 hundred dollar range or even cheaper. Next suggestion is to not be intimidated/scared of tubes. I've had my Dynaco for 3 years now and never had to do anything to it really. I don't even turn it on and off. It just stays on all the time. I reaplaced the 4 output tubes once because I wanted to, not because something was wrong. $400 for a Dynaco ST-70 or similar amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 from your description of your electronics i would say that there is your problem, i have gone through a few players, than i dumped my complete cd collection, than i went tt, than i bouight a good cd player ,krell, than i koicked myself for not starting with a good to great player in the begining, would have saved alot of money and frustration, my current alternate player is my denon 2900, its good but very undynamic compared to the krell, and if your gear is as old as you say, run dont walk and upgrade. now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Hey hey now, stop whimpering, you'll ruin your makeup. Everything's going to be all right, I promise, Analogman *** Too damn funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Given 3 columns of gear - column A has 3 CD players, column B has 3 amplifiers, and column C has 3 speakers, you have at a minimum 27 different sonic outcomes. Some you might like, others you might abhor and some might be merely tolerable. But, make no mistake, they will all be different. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Neat insight Mark. That is why the double blind testing is not for me. I would need to hear 20 CDs and 20 LPs on a system to make an opinion. And to ENJOY making and opinion. Not do the instant doulbe blind thing and make a decison in real time. Anothert thought for those of you who do technical investigations in your field. I relate Mark's comment to like a Taguchi Design of Experiment. Maybe I am currently in the middle of a 10 year experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinlr Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/28/2005 7:06:36 PM artto wrote: I have thousands of LP, CD, tapes & about 100 SACD. The brutal fact is that 90% or more of the recordings out there (sound wise) SUCK. Its always been that way & I doubt its going to change. ---------------- Well said! And unfortunately that has been my experience as well. As for older rock recordings sounding better than new ones, I guess it depends on point of view. For me going from awful to more awful doesn't change anything. Awful is still awful... Over the years I have found precious few recordings (LP & CD) that are really good. Most of these are either classical or jazz. As a lover of classic rock & roll, I am frustrated that 95% of those recordings sound as if they were recorded in a dumpster... One of the really big problems with have a really accurate system is that you can now hear how bad the recordings really are - GIGO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Right. This is the usual and good practice procedure. Take your time, that's part of the ride. And of course, remember the whole process is riddled with compromises. ======== And a "chuckhole" (as we say in the winter in the north) or two every now and then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 10:35:28 AM richinlr wrote: ---------------- On 1/28/2005 7:06:36 PM artto wrote: I have thousands of LP, CD, tapes & about 100 SACD. The brutal fact is that 90% or more of the recordings out there (sound wise) SUCK. Its always been that way & I doubt its going to change. ---------------- Well said! And unfortunately that has been my experience as well. As for older rock recordings sounding better than new ones, I guess it depends on point of view. For me going from awful to more awful doesn't change anything. Awful is still awful... Over the years I have found precious few recordings (LP & CD) that are really good. Most of these are either classical or jazz. As a lover of classic rock & roll, I am frustrated that 95% of those recordings sound as if they were recorded in a dumpster... One of the really big problems with have a really accurate system is that you can now hear how bad the recordings really are - GIGO. ---------------- what many klipsch owners have done is to use a tube amplifier to make their systems "not so accurate" and make these recordings more listenable... or you can try to find a better SS amp that is accurate without being so harsh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinlr Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 9:25:12 AM synthfreek wrote: I just read the entire thread and not one person asked for specific examples of some of these crappy sounding cds. There was the one mention about listening to smooth jazz on the tuner but that was it. Do your smooth jazz cds sound like crap? What if JPM has a bunch of Alan Lomax mono field recording from 1936? What if it's a bunch of Misfits or lo-fi punk cds? Does Dark Side Of The Moon sound good on your setup? Does Steely Dan sound good? If so then there's a bigger problem. My first suggestion would be for a moderately priced universal player in the 3-4 hundred dollar range or even cheaper. Next suggestion is to not be intimidated/scared of tubes. I've had my Dynaco for 3 years now and never had to do anything to it really. I don't even turn it on and off. It just stays on all the time. I reaplaced the 4 output tubes once because I wanted to, not because something was wrong. $400 for a Dynaco ST-70 or similar amp. ---------------- 1. LP - Linda Rondstat & Nelson Riddle - "For Sentimental Reasons" Absolutely wonderful 2. CD - Mahler Sympnony No. 5 - Chicago Symphony with Georg Solti - fantastic 3. LP - MoFi Dark Side of the Moon - fair at best 4. LP - Led Zeppelin - (the one with Stairway to Heaven) - crapola 5. CD & LP - Bryan Ferry - "Boys & Girls" - Both sound above average but LP is more dynamic. 6. LP - MoFi Steely Dan (Aja & Katy Lied)- only fair. 7. LP - Standard edition - Steely Dan - Gaucho - pretty good 8. CD - Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms & Love over Gold - nice 9. CD & LP - Dave Brubeck - Take Five - Columbia remastered CD - crapola - ancient LP used as flying saucer in an earlier life - dynamite even through the pops & crackles. Want more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 I wish someone that had a good ear for what sounds right that lived in the Seattle WA area would come over to my pad and listen to what I have. Maybe then he could help direct me. Free beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthfreek Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 richi I intended theat towards JPM. Can JPM give us some examples of what sounds crappy? Thanks though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 "...what many Klipsch owners have done is to use a tube amplifier to make their systems "not so accurate" and make these recordings more listenable..." Russ, I believe your tube amp experience is limited to one, ancient, terribly out of spec Dynaco unit. Please refrain from these over the top comments. The fact is, one of the reasons most tube amps are "more listenable" is because their distortion is lower at the power levels horns use to reach the volumes most typically listen at. There are other reasons too. You've also lumped all tube amps together, which is really nutty when one considers the different topologies and how different they sound. This hobby is all about making the listening experience as enjoyable as possible, and the "more listenable" your system is -- the more you enjoy it. As far as "accuracy" goes -- most tube amps have no problem producing linear in-room frequency response. Hell, the room cause more problems than any tube amp will. Rick, your equipment list keeps growing, but know and understand that all of that stuff is pumping through a 20 cent electrolytic capacitor sitting behind your midrange horn/driver. Needless to say, I take your opinions with much salt. JPM, if you can't afford to have me rework your networks, than pull them out and tack a 10 ohm, 12 watt resistor to the 2 ohm resistor on the bottom boards of each speaker. If you can't solder, find someone who can, and would be willing to do this for you. This simple mod will get you half way there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 12:37:46 PM DeanG wrote: "...what many Klipsch owners have done is to use a tube amplifier to make their systems "not so accurate" and make these recordings more listenable..." Russ, I believe your tube amp experience is limited to one, ancient, terribly out of spec Dynaco unit. Please refrain from these over the top comments. ---------------- you have no idea what my dynaco sounded like in my system or how "terribly out of spec" it was or wasn't..... you also have no idea of what different tube amplifiers that i have listened to over the years - in my system as well as in other systems please refrain from making uniformed comments as to my experience.... and my comments are as always - IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Well, considering your now extensive past experience with various tube amps, you've certainly made great effort in refraining from speaking about it here or anywhere else on the forum. As far as the SCA-35 goes, most here I'm sure remember the threads. It was a 40 year old stock unit. EDIT: Now that I think about it, I believe you were running it with an equally old and suffering Dynaco preamp. If I'm wrong on both counts, I'll be glad to deliver an apology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 DeanG, I would like to commission you to do your magic with my RF7's. I have to entertain the inlaws now, so I'll try to reach you Monday to discuss. I have your email and will contact you. I also have the money to accomplish this. When you get my email, it will say JPM and RF7 in the subject line. Thanks in advance. JPM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 "...what many Klipsch owners have done is to use a tube amplifier to make their systems "not so accurate" and make these recordings more listenable..." C'mon Russ, considering the amount of major lurkers on this forum use tube amplifiers, you know that comment is going to start feedback. OTOH, there is something to be said about digital amps. Something not to be ignored, IMHO. That remark may be your honest opinion, but Dean and I feel you don't have enough experience with tube amps to make those claims. Just our honest opinion. It's a hobby of preferences. What you may think is gay may be the bee's knees for someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 10:56:08 AM richinlr wrote: 2. CD - Mahler Sympnony No. 5 - Chicago Symphony with Georg Solti - fantastic ---------------- Yes, that's one of the better performances of the Mahler 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 JPM, You will not regret your decision to let Dean rebuild your crossovers. The crossover mod was the best bang for the buck decision that I have made. Speaker plcement may help, just don't hurt yourself lifting the 90 pound monsters. This tweak is free as long as you do not hurt your back. The comments about modern universal players are on point. The digital filters on SACD and DVD-A players are better quality than on regular CD players. They filter at higher frequencies that are inaudible to the human ear. I have done more reading about your integrated amp. It is a stout piece of equipment with dual transformers. It is 80 watts into 8 ohms with 0.07% noise and harmonic distortion. It doubles down into 4 ohms, i.e., it puts out 160 watts, but with 0.7% harmonic distortion and noise. The noise rises rapidly into the audible zone if the amp is pushed. Solid state amps put out odd order harmonics which many folks do not like. After the crossover upgrade and a new palyer is in the system, see if the bright sound increases dispropotionately with volume. If it does, then the integrated amp is the likely cause. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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