Preparing for Jubilee build

[chops]

Sorry guys, I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I do have a couple questions.

What's the difference of the Jube bass bin over the Khon bass bin? Is there any reason why one is better than the other?

[Guest " "]

Sorry guys, I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I do have a couple questions.

What's the difference of the Jube bass bin over the Khon bass bin? Is there any reason why one is better than the other?

see attached

AES-Jubilee2.pdf

[chops]

Sorry guys, I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I do have a couple questions.

What's the difference of the Jube bass bin over the Khon bass bin? Is there any reason why one is better than the other?

see attached

Ah ha! I see. Thanks Fritz! []

[bodcaw boy]

Can I ask what might come across as a rude question?

Before I do, I want to CLEARLY state that I do NOT intend for it to BE rude, that I'm genuinely wondering...

Why try to build a Jubilee?

I mean... haven't we all moped every now & then about Heritage not being easily available? Have we not every now & then, voiced our wishes that Klipsch would be more visible in the Heritage line? That perhaps, they might even produce a home version of the Jubilee?

They HAVE the Jubilee available and it can be ordered... yet instead, we now garner plans on how to make our own "on the cheap"?

Furthermore, these plans are discussed and fine tuned on the very forum of the people who's product you're copying?

I can understand someone wanting to make something like that "because you can", and happen to have the skillset & tools to do so. I can also understand wanting to save some greenbacks. I'm not beyond that comprehension.

Isn't that one of the problems with our country though, in that, we (as a society) are less and less willing to "pay the piper" for something if we can get same goods cheaper from China, or in this case, do it ourself?

I'm sorry, I am not trying to rain on a parade... I just think that Klipsch, PWK and Roy have put so much time into this project that it should be an "honor" (to use a corny word) to have their pinnacle achievement and frankly, to dissect their baby & make some home grown versions...well, is to me, a slap in their face. In my view, it implies those of you able to make a pair will make a pair. Will you make some for others? Will you share the plans with others so they can make or hire it out themselves?

Are these not some of the very reasons we might not ever see the Jubilee in producton?

Heck...I don't know, maybe I'm just mumbling at empty walls... it just strikes me as wrong to deny them the sale when it's the sale to them, that helps keep them going and MIGHT spur them to create a production run.

As someone who bought new LaScalas (2), Academy's (3), Promedieas (1) from Klipsch, I can stand fairly guilt free that some of my dollars helped them do that which they do. (I did buy my Khorns used, but back to the point...there is no local dealer here...I would have)

How would YOU feel, if you owned a business and had a forum for said business and your patrons went about making their own versions of your products because ostensibly, they didn't want to pay you for yours?

To finish off sounding corny... it frankly makes me a bit sad.

hi coytee,

i too appreciate your comments. yes Paul and i spent quite some time working out the kinks and obviously we would be honored to have people get the cinema version of the jubs. but i also appreciate creativity and greg was certainly going down a different path, one that we could have explored but because of business constraints, we did not choose (his drawings are going to call for some complicated cuts). we wanted the cabinet to be buildable and at a profit and Paul really believed in rubber throats. i was not condoning that plans be made and be made available for sale. i am sure that the execs would frown on clones of klipsch speakers that are made and then made available for sale. but in greg's case, it sounds like he wants to be in experimenter land and try something different for his own pleasure. that is why i asked if he had access to measurement equipment cause i would defintely be interested in data.

again, thanks for the support coytee and will you be jubbing soon?

roy

[popbumper]

Since Coytee more or less directed this discussion down another path, I figured I would add my nickel's worth.

First, let me say that I have great respect for this company and what it is doing/what it has done. I hope that's obvious; I personally don't plan to even look at another brand of speakers - ever.

Second,I don't have deep pockets like some of you do. Hey - not a problem - more power to you, we all have our blessings, and I am a blessed man in many ways.

Third, I am a tinkerer at heart, always have been, always will be. Some of my greatest satisfactions in life have come from things my own hands have wrought, and I admire those who exhibit far greater talents; I do my best.

My concern is this: If Klipsch is NOT contrary to anyone buiding their own bass bin, and they have never said it could NOT, then why would anyone, especially those not in employ of Klipsch, be quick to forbid those who wish to? I cannot drop $7k on speakers - all of my stuff is "post heritage" - to me, it cost a pretty penny, and I am proud of it. Let me be clear here also - I do not wish to create Jubilees for others, I do not wish to dishonor anyone, I do not wish to create a problem.

BUT, if others HAVE been able to have this information, and HAVE successfully built these, then why would those who can easily drop the dough, or question the "morality" of the issue, be so quick to judge, with many others to follow?

This bothers me. The BEST aforementioned example of this scenario WORKING in "practice" are PASS amplifiers, where people build them all the time, with the schematics freely given by the author. It does not hurt the company in any way, and certainly the designer understands and welcomes the inputs/feedback/engineering feats of the tinkeres. Heck, DIYaudio forum has its own PASS LABS section, where Mr. Pass INVITES the inputs and ideas of others!! Everyone benefits.

If I had deep pockets, having heard them, I'd be ALL OVER the Jubilee. I don't. Please don't allow a translation of ethics to be a shut door for others who cannot freely extend themselves as others can. I am NOT being harsh, I am merely making a plea for "this side" of the coin. I am not the enemy here, and if I stepped out of bounds, there was never an intent - I just want to build something for myself.

Chris

[bodcaw boy]

You are correct that the stock Jubilee HF section with the K1132 driver has the falling HF response, but the Jubilee that Roy has been demostrating for us is using the K69 driver where this isn't a concern (ie, no EQ necessary).

As far as home use...the Jubilee doesn't project sound out in the classical sense of the waveform not fully generating until far away from the speaker. This of course happens to some extent with every transducer, but in the case of the Jubilee I've been led to believe it is a rather short distance like any of the rest of the heritage line.

For what it's worth, the LF section is completely identical to the home version PWK originally had in mind with the design.

The reason the HF section is so large is to maintain strong pattern control all the way down to 500Hz. If you dont' want something so monstrous there is the option to move to a smaller horn that loses pattern control below 800Hz. The smaller horn is available from klipsch, but of course requires a very different crossover - and in this situation the need for an active is probably even more important.

as the good doctor has said, there is a smaller horn that can be mated to the jub lf and in fact, i demonstrated that last year with active stuff. if enough people are interested, i can try to whip up a passive for a cinema jub, 510 horn and 69 driver. maybe the smaller horn can kill some of the horn envy going on! just as an fyi, Paul and i played with this horn as an alternative to the wood horn.

[popbumper]

Roy:

Speaking of crossovers, I sent you an email two weeks back about the PCB's, still willing to assist you if you are interested. Did not hear back from you, so not sure what the status was, if anything.

Chris

[jwc]

Roy it is great for you jump in. Thanks for the helpful emails too.

The big horn on top sounded good but I can't sell that to the wife. Guys, she actually thinks the Jubilee bass bin is cool and likes it in Black. I've got a lucky jump here. To make the cinema version fit for the home, I think it would be great to work out a different top horn combo. Thanks Roy.

I currently am the one exchanging emails with Chuck about just getting the bass bins. Would have to slowly work my way to your top horn options later in a stepping process. May have to wing it with a different top section that I have laying around in parts.

jc

[bodcaw boy]

Roy:

Speaking of crossovers, I sent you an email two weeks back about the PCB's, still willing to assist you if you are interested. Did not hear back from you, so not sure what the status was, if anything.

Chris

hey chris,

i got your email and if enough interest is shown and i can get permission to have some made, i will send you the schematic and see about making a limited run.

thanks,

roy

[popbumper]

Roy:

Appreciate all you have done/are doing, thanks for the time spent with us at the event. Looking forward to next time - please don't hesitate if you need anything.

Chris

[Edgar]

but i also appreciate creativity and greg was certainly going down a different path, one that we could have explored but because of business constraints, we did not choose (his drawings are going to call for some complicated cuts).  we wanted the cabinet to be buildable and at a profit and Paul really believed in rubber throats.  i was not condoning that plans be made and be made available for sale.  i am sure that the execs would frown on clones of klipsch speakers that are made and then made available for sale.  but in greg's case, it sounds like he wants to be in experimenter land and try something different for his own pleasure.  that is why i asked if he had access to measurement equipment cause i would defintely be interested in data. 

Roy,

I cannot begin to tell you how relieved I am to read your post. As the literal "new kid on the block" who jumped-in feet-first and started splashing around in the water, only to have Coytee ask the very proper and necessary question, "Should we be doing this?", I felt AWFUL. I would NEVER dream of stepping on anyone's toes at Klipsch or anywhere else.

As you pointed out, the design changes that I proposed would be purely experimental. At the moment I have no way to construct an enclosure and no way to test one once it was constructed. I am an engineer myself, so it is in my nature to experiment with numbers and design alternatives. There are no guarantees that what looks good on paper (or on the computer screen) will be good in reality.

At this point I do not know what to do. Having an idea for a design, or even a crude sketch, is one thing. Having a full 3-D CAD drawing is yet another. I certainly don't want to enable anyone to pirate your design.

Greg

[Edgar]

as the good doctor has said, there is a smaller horn that can be mated to the jub lf and in fact, i demonstrated that last year with active stuff.  if enough people are interested, i can try to whip up a passive for a cinema jub, 510 horn and 69 driver.  maybe the smaller horn can kill some of the horn envy going on!   just as an fyi, Paul and i played with this horn as an alternative to the wood horn.

Everybody; do not overlook the use of a PC and a good sound card as a (fairly) inexpensive digital crossover. Sound cards like the LynxTWO (http://www.lynxstudio.com/compare.html) and others have outstanding audio performance for reasonable prices. (Of course, "outstanding" and "reasonable" are in the eyes of the beholder.) I have a fair amount of experience programming audio processing under ASIO 2.0, so I can help with that if anyone wants.

Greg

[DrWho]

as the good doctor has said, there is a smaller horn that can be mated to the jub lf and in fact, i demonstrated that last year with active stuff. if enough people are interested, i can try to whip up a passive for a cinema jub, 510 horn and 69 driver. maybe the smaller horn can kill some of the horn envy going on! just as an fyi, Paul and i played with this horn as an alternative to the wood horn.

Everybody; do not overlook the use of a PC and a good sound card as a (fairly) inexpensive digital crossover. Sound cards like the LynxTWO (http://www.lynxstudio.com/compare.html) and others have outstanding audio performance for reasonable prices. (Of course, "outstanding" and "reasonable" are in the eyes of the beholder.) I have a fair amount of experience programming audio processing under ASIO 2.0, so I can help with that if anyone wants.

Greg

I would be very interested in experimenting with something like this. I've wanted to do it on my own for a while, but just completely lack the capability. Using ASIO is a clever way to go about it too as it will be more compatible with different setups.

[colterphoto1]

I have to jump in here. I met Roy at last year's pilgrimage and had a very interesting conversation with him over lunch. Superfine gentleman. I just find it cool as heck that he is calling my good friend DrWho 'the good doctor'.

It's worth me missing Hope this year if in some bizarre way it contributed to Mike being able to travel with Trey and spend so much time with Roy. I bet you two had a great time together. So much energy!

Back to your regularly scheduled thread, btw when I get my workshop up and running, I'm going to build the Jubilee also. And I just acquired Khorns. That is how much I think of this latest design.

Michael

[Daddy Dee]

we wanted the cabinet to be buildable and at a profit and Paul really believed in rubber throats

rubber throats? Roy or anyone, could you say more about that? I'm not familiar with this issue, not suprising, since I know little. Have to say I am curious about the issue for speaker building.

[Edgar]

Using ASIO is a clever way to go about it too as it will be more compatible with different setups.

ASIO is one of many possibilities; simply the one with which I am most familiar. Unfortunately ASIO is not as device-independent as it probably could be. There is a moderately complex section of code that must be customized for each sound card; the main portion containing the signal processing can then be generic.

Perhaps someone who has more Windows or Mac OS savvy can recommend some other candidates, as well.

The good news is that even complicated crossovers and EQ do not significantly load a modern processor. Been wondering what to do with that old Pentium III machine that's gathering dust? It's more than powerful enough for this.

Greg

[Tony Reed]

we wanted the cabinet to be buildable and at a profit and Paul really believed in rubber throats

rubber throats? Roy or anyone, could you say more about that? I'm not familiar with this issue, not suprising, since I know little. Have to say I am curious about the issue for speaker building.

Along with the rubber throat, I'd really like to hear more about that pretty wooden horn. I'm going to try my hand at building a pair, if I can get the right "formula".

Tony

[Daddy Dee]

Does anyone have the approx. dimensions of the K-402 horn. This is one of the horns on the Jubilee in the Hope engineering lab, right?

It's a tractrix horn, right?

[bodcaw boy]

we wanted the cabinet to be buildable and at a profit and Paul really believed in rubber throats

rubber throats? Roy or anyone, could you say more about that? I'm not familiar with this issue, not suprising, since I know little. Have to say I am curious about the issue for speaker building.

let's see. this how paul explained it to me; because the velocity of air particles are greater at low frequencies (assuming constant voltage), you can "load" the low freqs to the point that this bandwidth becomes the first to create distortion at high spls. so this fast flare rate leading to a much larger area, becomes the "throat" for the horn at low freqs. this swapping of throats for the horn makes it flexible (or rubbery) in the two distinct bandwidths created by doing this. or something like that.

actually, he explained it better than this but i get a case of "hornitisiforgetious" every once in awhile.

roy

[bodcaw boy]

we wanted the cabinet to be buildable and at a profit and Paul really believed in rubber throats

rubber throats? Roy or anyone, could you say more about that? I'm not familiar with this issue, not suprising, since I know little. Have to say I am curious about the issue for speaker building.

Along with the rubber throat, I'd really like to hear more about that pretty wooden horn. I'm going to try my hand at building a pair, if I can get the right "formula".

Tony

actually not much to the wooden horn. just a plain, ole, modified tractrix horn with collapsing verticals. the trick there was to get it made out of wood. we tried 4 vendors and we got the same old story; samples and first quote were great; first small production horns were not good but at least they were expensive.

roy