Cammanvideo Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I just purchased the Yamaha HTR-5790 with klipsch F-3s floorstand Synergy's and the Center C-2 Center and the Suround S-2's and the KSW-12 Sub. My room is awkward being that the TV is in the corner of the room so my speaker layout is ODD at least, Just wondering if all the monster cable has to be all = at lenth. Thanks all Cammanvideo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 4:05:53 AM Cammanvideo wrote: I just purchased the Yamaha HTR-5790 with klipsch F-3s floorstand Synergy's and the Center C-2 Center and the Suround S-2's and the KSW-12 Sub. My room is awkward being that the TV is in the corner of the room so my speaker layout is ODD at least, Just wondering if all the monster cable has to be all = at lenth. Thanks all Cammanvideo ---------------- Welcome to the Forum. If you haven't bought the cable yet, please, if you can avoid Mon$ter. Home Depot sells some good cable, any other brand. IDEALLY, yes they shoud be the same, but IF A FEW FEET IS GOING TO BE COILED BEHIND ONE SPEAKER one can be shorter. EDITL NOTE IF - DO NOT COIL SPEAKER CABLE!! END EDIT. What would be the difference? EDIT: GOING TO THE QUESTION, hoping readers will note stance of no difference. END EDIT dodger CAPS ARE SAME WORD, EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION @ 0130 hours 1/31/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I disagree! The cables do NOT have to be the same length. It doesn't matter at all. I do agree that monster cable is not necessary. I used ordinary #16 lamp cord for years and the replace it with #10. It made no difference. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Bot saying that it is right but then why do almost all manufacturers of speakers say your fronts (mains or mains and center) should have the same length??? Is this just one more "old wive's tale" perpetuated by the high price speaker cable conspiracy theorists??? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 old wives tale for sure, unless the difference is hundreds of feet there is nothing to worry about, even hundreds of feet wouls be such a little difference that it is doubtfull that iw ould be very noticable, and than to compensate you might just go up once in guage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinlr Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 5:24:50 AM dodger wrote: ---------------- On 1/29/2005 4:05:53 AM Cammanvideo wrote: I just purchased the Yamaha HTR-5790 with klipsch F-3s floorstand Synergy's and the Center C-2 Center and the Suround S-2's and the KSW-12 Sub. My room is awkward being that the TV is in the corner of the room so my speaker layout is ODD at least, Just wondering if all the monster cable has to be all = at lenth. Thanks all Cammanvideo ---------------- Welcome to the Forum. If you haven't bought the cable yet, please, if you can avoid Mon$ter. Home Depot sells some good cable, any other brand. Ideally yes they shoud be the same, but if a few feet is goin to be coiled behind one speaker one can be shorter. What would be the difference? dodger ---------------- Not going to get into the argument about length here. One warning to all, however, regards what to do with the excess cable length. In a word do NOT coil it up. Think about what an inductor (low pass filter) really is - a coil of wire. ANY coil of wire will make an inductor of some sort and hence a low pass filter. Granted, the odds of hitting an mH value that would significantly affect the system are very high, why even go there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 10:16:59 AM richinlr wrote: In a word do NOT coil it up. Think about what an inductor (low pass filter) really is - a coil of wire. ANY coil of wire will make an inductor of some sort and hence a low pass filter. Granted, the odds of hitting an mH value that would significantly affect the system are very high, why even go there? ---------------- What does this mean in english? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I hate to be so negative, but again I disagree! There is no danger to coiling up the cable either! Speaker cable has two pairs. Current is flowing in opposite directions. This neutralizes the fields. In fact, it is common practice to make non-inductive reisitors using resistance wire by first doubling it back on itself, then winding it into a coil. It works quite nicely if the pair is kept a consistant distance apart. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Guys, I just remembered that I have several wire-would resistors using non- inductive windings. The picture shows two of them using two different methods. Both are 8 Ohms. They are wound on flat paint sturing sticks. The one on the left has the wired doubled back on itself like speaker cable with one end shorted. The fold is on the left and the pair is wound proceeding to the right. The inductance was too low to measure. The one on the right has the wire folded in the middle and winds in opposite directions. This method separates the opposite fields to far apart. It has 5 MicroHenrys of inductance. The down side to this is that while inductance is reduced, the distributed capacity between the wires goes up! This happens with long speaker cable too. So, speaker cable has high capacity, not high inductance. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 5:55:15 PM nicholtl wrote: ---------------- On 1/29/2005 10:16:59 AM richinlr wrote: In a word do NOT coil it up. Think about what an inductor (low pass filter) really is - a coil of wire. ANY coil of wire will make an inductor of some sort and hence a low pass filter. Granted, the odds of hitting an mH value that would significantly affect the system are very high, why even go there? ---------------- What does this mean in english? ---------------- what this means is that wiring your speaker wire in a circle or a coil after multiple windings you will creat a "coil" a coil is measured in heneries (after the guy who egineered them) basically a coil will create emi interference if there is enough milli-heneries that are passing through the coil. This will then creat a magnetic field of energy and thus create emi interference and PWK said that the human ear can tolerate rf distortion up to 20 dB, but he said that the huaman ear will notice and "hate" emi interference at incredibly low levels some ears even at 1 dB. Therefore in theory, having a small coil even creating a small amount of emi distortion can affect your speakers sound. I personally do not believe that wiring your speaker wire in a coil will make any difference because of the constant level of voltage going through the wire in both directions. Anyways to answer your question about the length of wire you can actually use the timing correction on your receiver to compensate for the extra wire, all you need to do is measure the length fo wire that will be used and then use that as your timing correction iinstead of the actualy distance your speaker is from the listening area. Does this make sense? this will then void and issues of affected sound field etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Thanks for the clarification, Gramas. Much appreciated. I heard that unless you had miles and miles of speaker cable deviation, there is no measurable difference. And even with miles and miles of it, the difference would be negligible. Nanoseconds, if that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 No, the wires can vary in length quite a bit, just ensure that the wires are of adequate gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 ---------------- On 1/29/2005 9:02:13 PM Gramas701 wrote: Anyways to answer your question about the length of wire you can actually use the timing correction on your receiver to compensate for the extra wire, all you need to do is measure the length fo wire that will be used and then use that as your timing correction iinstead of the actualy distance your speaker is from the listening area. Does this make sense? this will then void and issues of affected sound field etc... ---------------- Ok no. Electricity travels close to the speed of light 300,000,000 m/s whereas sound travels a measly 300 m/s. This is why we can see lightning before we hear it. The timing correction on the reciever is to compensate for the extra distance the SOUND must travel (not the electricity). Let's plug out the numbers: Cable A is 5m long and Cable B is 10m long. Cable A is connected to speaker A and Cable B is connected to speaker B. It would take .00000001667 seconds for the signal to travel down cable A and .00000003333 seconds for the signal to travel down cable B. If we wanted the signal from Speaker A to arrive at the same time of Speaker B, then we would have to move Speaker A away from the listener a distance of .00000001667 seconds...at the speed of sound, this equates to a distance of .000005 meters. I don't know about you guys, but I don't exactly bust out laser pointers and micrometers to get my speaker position so exact that I put my head in a vise in order to experience it. Even then, the stereo image is going to be shifted maybe .0000025 meters to the left or right which is entirely inaudible. Conclusion? Set the distances on your reciever to correspond to the physical distances of the speakers. Differences in cable length are a mute issue so don't worry about having shorter runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 What lengths will the cables be? - note the amount of difference. I should have asked in the first reply. But, Take 12' of speaker wire DC Inductance Resistance (XL Impedance) = 0.039 ohms at 100 hz: add 0.0015 total of 0.04 ohms at 20 khz: add 0.30 total 0.339 ohms The end result to an 8 ohm speaker: at 100 hz 0.5 % at 20khz 4.1 % Little difference at 100 hz, difference of 8x @ 20 khz Imperceptable, but a start to roll of high frequency. Purists would note and state, as there is a difference, both should be the same length. As we try to gain every bit of signal at all frequencies, we see 12' does have a difference at different frequencies. NOTE that I stated "ideally." In a "hobby" where purists ask to obtain what is closest to perfection and claim to hear differences between cables, then it is the ideal to them as there is a difference. Will we hear it? I highly doubt it. I did not recommend coiling excess. Too many do though. As I do not know the mind of the Poster, I will consider all factors that I can think of or find in "Dog Pile" searching to try to avoid another to post yes. Then I did not answer the question correctly. We all can note calculations. If there is a difference, no matter how minute, I defer to stating ideally. But I do agree with both in practical applications, no, it should not matter. A purist would possibly state it differs, therefore it matters. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 your reciever is not goinng to know the physical distance of your speakers though, nor is the sound... it still has to go across that distance no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 The impedance differences you're mentioning shouldn't be an issue as long as the correct guage of wire is being used. I'm also not quite sure how you calculated those numbers and what guage of cable you were modeling. Here is an excerpt from an article someone else just posted... ""Passing an audio signal through cables, PCB tracks or switch contacts causes a cumulative deterioration. Precious metal contact surfaces reduce but do not eliminate the problem. This too is undetectable by tests for non-linearity." Concern over cables is widespread, but it can be said with confidence that there is as yet not a shred of evidence to support it. Any piece of wire passes a sinewave with unmeasurable distortion, and so simple notions of inter-crystal rectification or "micro-diodes" can be discounted, quite apart from the fact that such behaviour is absolutely ruled out by established materials science. No plausible means of detecting, let alone measuring, cable degradation has ever been proposed. The most significant parameter of a loudspeaker cable is probably its lumped inductance. This can cause minor variations in frequency response at the very top of the audio band, given a demanding load impedance. These deviations are unlikely to exceed 0.1 dB for reasonable cable constructions. (eg inductance less than 4 uH) The resistance of a typical cable (perhaps 0.1 Ohm) causes response variations across the band, following the speaker impedance curve, but these are usually even smaller at around 0.05 dB. This is not audible." http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm I know they're not quite the same thing, but the idea is a difference of .1 Ohm (double what you're showing) is going to be within .05dB which is completely inaudible. You would have to increase the magnitude of the effects by 20 before it'd even become noticeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 ---------------- On 1/30/2005 3:45:40 PM Gramas701 wrote: your reciever is not goinng to know the physical distance of your speakers though, nor is the sound... it still has to go across that distance no? ---------------- The sound doesn't start to travel until the diaphragms on the speaker start moving. I think you're thinking about it as if the sound was somehow travelling through the wire which isn't the case. Through the wire, we have variations in voltage that eventually create a magnetic field in the voicecoil (just like electromagnets). The magnetic field created in the voicecoil repels the magnetic field from the speaker magnet surrounding it which causes the diapgragm of the speaker to move. These voltages are travelling through the wire at the speed of electricity. The spacing between and the magnitude of the voltages is what defines what sound we hear. The spacing between the electrical voltages and the actual sound waves are identical (in an ideal world anyway). For example, let's say the amplifier puts out a positive voltage. It takes that short amount of time for that voltage to reach the voice coil and cause the diaphragm to move. Once the diaphgram moves, it now takes that longer amount of time for the sound to reach your ears. Our recievers don't care how long the wires are because it's nearly instantaneous. It's the speed of sound that's the larger factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 that makes sense then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Please Note: Ideally, Purist, Any Difference, No coiling recommendation. IF people state that they can hear differences in cables, I will go the same route in purity. Thus ideally is used. My calculations came from my Textbooks and basically noted word for word in an HT article and discussion. I am NOT arguing with, or trying to show Al K. or Dr. Who incorrect. Re-read my post, I agree in a real sense with them. As I did post "ideally" I stated why that was used. Besides Text, a search found the same thing. One recommendation noted that same 12' information and one Engineer stated that they should be the same length. Since I live in the real world and agreed with Al K. and Dr. Who I tempered my language to ideally. I answer a question tempering what does not seem to be audible with the word. If I did not and a purist posted tactfully or not tactfully that I did not include one or more factors then I would not be truly answering the question. This can be bantered all day and some will still say both lengths should be equal - some will say there is no difference. Such was the case in a Home Theater Forum. Some will state they can hear a difference when using one brand of cable, others will state that they cannot. It's close to a Court Case and the battle of the Expert Witnesses. So Al, Dr. Who - I agree there will not be a difference in the world we live in. But since we stil do NOT know the lengths and gauge cable that will be run by the Poster, and we have those who swear by $11,000.00 Cables, I WILL say ideally, but NOT state that they HAVE to be the same length and did NOT. For the 12' example used the wire was 12 gauge. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammanvideo Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Thank You all for your kind wisdom, it all worked out in the wash. Great avice here and I learned a few things too. Thanks All of you. Cammanvideo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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