GE loaded Type E vs. Heresy ALK

[Deang]

I'm going to eventually ask that this thread be moved to the mods section, but for now we'll start here.

I built up some Type E's using some of Bob's 2uF GE motor runs. I soldered in my grounding 'bar', as well as the wire from tap 0 to input negative. Everything else was alligator clipped so I could easily go between taps. The woofer inductor is the 2.5mH Erse Super 'Q' from Parts Express. The autotransformer is the UT 3619.

One Heresy with an ALK, the other with what amounts to being a slightly improved stock Type E. The majority of listening was done with the The Peach set to mono. I realize the slight loss in HF extension, but it was important that I hear the same thing out of both speakers. Towards the end, I did some listening in stereo, but I didn't hear anything that changed my impressions. Listening was done in nearfield, about 4 feet away. The Heresy's were placed on stands, with the squawkers at ear level. Distance between the speakers was reduced to 3 feet. I wasn't concerned with imaging, but with reducing room boundary effects as much as possible.

I turned the left gain control on The Peach all the way down, and settled in for some mono Type E listening. I used a lot of old stuff (Santana, The Who, The Moody Blues, Led Z, etc.). I didn't get into anything new because I never got that far. No matter how much I tried to like it -- it was just too bright. It only sounded "right" at the lowest of volume levels (70-75db), at which point the bass was near absent. Starting at about 85db and onwards, things would start to sound brittle and a little harsh. I don't understand why PK voiced them this way. I took them back down to where they sounded 'good', listened for a few minutes, and then turned it down.

Going through the same sequence with the Heresy loaded ALK, I had the complete opposite problem. Starting at 75db, I thought they sounded lifeless and uninvolving. Realizing my ears were probably still dialed in to the Type E, I gave it a few songs. After about 15 minutes I decided that they definitely sounded 'closed in' compared to the Type E at the same volume level. Not as crisp and open, and midrange transients were low key. I went over to The Peach and went up about a half a notch, and it sounded much better. The meter was bouncing into the 85db area. This was the same area I felt the Type E Heresy was beginning to fall apart. At 90db, it sounded great. In fact, anything past that sounded great. Easy to render a valid opinion here, because that's territory I'm well familiar with.

I turned everything down -- time to go smoke a cigarette. Out in garage I was thinking about how bad PK's hearing must of been. "Why didn't anyone say something to the guy?" Troubling thoughts, so I shifted my focus to other possible reasons. The first thing that came to mind was the fact that they were voiced with vinyl and probably reel to reel. The second thing I thought about was that maybe he just didn't listen to music that loud. The third thing I thought about was that I was listening in nearfield -- so not much if any of the high frequencies were being absorbed or defracted. In most rooms, in normal setup, one could probably expect higher output before any annoying artifacts set in. This of course infers that ALK loaded Heresy's would require much higher output to equal the open, and dare I say "unfettered" quality of the stock network.

I went upstairs and repeated the whole experiment, beginning with the ALK side, and ending with the Type E side. In nearfield, with the meter bouncing between 75 and 80db, I definitely preferred the sound of the stock Heresy. After that -- it was ALK all the way.

Time to move the taps around. I removed the back of the Heresy, and moved the alligator clips. The tweeter was moved to the #2 tap, and the squawker to the #1 tap. I strapped a 15 ohm resistor between the positive and negative screws on the terminal strip for the squawker to keep the crossover point near the same. I screwed the rear panel of the Heresy back on, and then repeated the whole deal again.

I would have to call this the "Goldilocks setup" for nearfield. To my ears, it sounded just right. It sounded good low, and sounded good loud. Just a touch of trouble around 95db, but that's pretty darn loud -- at least, it sure seems like it to me. A very open, well balanced sound -- with a good, tuneful, bouncing along kind of bass. I still preferred the ALKs at the higher SPLs (90db and up), but the modded Type E definitely makes for some happy ears for the majority of listening.

Oh yeah, I thought the GE motor runs aquitted themselves nicely. We'll see how they do tomorrow when I compare them with the other Type E loaded with Auricaps. There will be other interesting things after that, and I'll report on them as I go.

[ben.]

Good to see you take the time to post something this detailed, Dean. I had a post of similar length involving my phono cables all ready to go about a week ago. Crashy, crashy - forgot to savey. I haven't had the heart since.

Interesting findings, to be sure. You've come find a comfort in expression about these things that is refreshing in its lack of either pretense or oversimplification. Good to see, especially considering your reticence in this area not too long ago. I don't mean this as a criticism, just that it's nice to see your head and pen catch up to your ears. I think you get me...

Anyway, I think you're spot on as to some of the voicing concerns & possible design intent. Was the E developed after Klipsch realized (relented?) that the Heresy was going to be used as a main speaker? This could come into play as well, as a network for a "real world" center would probably be voiced accordingly.

Oh, and have you seen that commercial where the Doc squeezes ricotta cheese out of that guy's artery? Maybe a pipe would suit you better...

[ben.]

Another thought- I assume that changing taps was to attenuate the horns. This struck me as perhaps too typical of Klipsch's networks. I think PWK valued overall effeciency at the expense of a balanced system to some extent. I can certainly understand and appreciate these goals given the nature of amplification technology at the time. Given his bias towards orchestral and piano works, and (dear lord) Sousa, the borderline-leanness would certainly not be a liability, and perhaps even a strength with relation to overall system efficiency.

I also (reaching for can of worms) don't think it's too much a coincidence that he gravitated towards large SS amps in his later years.

[Hardhead]

Dean--

Was the Heresy tweeter a square magnet K-77-M or a round magnet K-77?

[Deang]

Square magnet K-77-M.

[Seadog]

Very interesting experiments! I can't wait to hear your impressions of the GE vs. the Auricaps.

[Deang]

Thanks Ben. Yes, time for me to get off my high horse and put my ideas to the test. I wanted to do it months ago, but couldn't scoot forward until I had the Heresy's.

Today was rewarding, but also netted me some depression. Some surprises were in store for me.

Instead of comparing caps (which all of sudden doesn't seem that important), I spent all of my time comparing circuits. I ended up repeating everything I did yesterday, and then moved forward with an E2 -- which didn't do much for me. The sound was etched out and grated on my nerves.

It's very cool seeing the caps held to the board with velcro, and everything alligator clipped. Looking at it makes me feel like an utter retard. With a pile of caps next to the speaker, of various brands and values, I had a Mandaville moment, and almost ran out of the room screaming -- but managed to hold on.

Having decided the best sound so far (low to moderate listening) was the simple mod by J. Albright, I decided to go with his full blown version next. Instead of using a 15 ohm resistor across the squawker after dropping to the lower taps, the full blown mod entails using a 21uF value as the primary, a 3uF to the tweeter, and a 10 ohm swamping resistor across taps 0 and 5 on the autotransformer. To get the 21uF value I paralled a 12uF and 9uF (Kimber). The 3uF was achieved with a 2.5uF Auricap and a .1uF Dayton film and foil. Hey, we do what we can with what we have!

This modded Type E is the cat's meow as far as I'm concerned. I ended up listening to it for two hours, and mind you -- this was through one speaker (true mono). It lacked just a bit of the crispness/forwardness I heard with the other mod, but meant it could be pushed much harder before the earbleed stage. Still very good down low, and much better at higher SPL's. I highly recommend this network for the Heresy.

So why am I depressed? Well, because in the low to moderate listening range, I actually prefer the sound coming out this single Heresy than I do the Klipschorns. If I didn't have so much to do, I would slit my wrists.

[Piranha]

It's no big deal. Pop a Prozac, sell your Khorns and buy 12 pair of mint Heresy.

[Deang]

You want to buy them? $4800, AND I have the original shipping boxes.

[James RD]

Smoking cigarettes and contemplating suicide. Somehow I never pictured you as one to crossover to the dark side.

[Deang]

Well, since smoking is really just another form of suicide, I suppose I really don't have to slit my wrists.

My Klipschorns sound incredible, but it takes a little bit of juice to get them there. It would be nice to be able to barely turn them up, and hear some of what I'm hearing out that Heresy.

[Piranha]

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On 2/2/2005 11:35:09 PM DeanG wrote:

You want to buy them? $4800, AND I have the original shipping boxes.

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Not anymore thank you.

[Deang]

Did you find some Tom?

[bhendrix]

Hi Dean,

I am new to the Forum and really appreciate your insights and work. I now have two pair of Heresy I's and would appreciate your counsel. I'm 53 years old now and suffering from tinnitus. Thirty years ago I worked at the largest Klipsch dealer in the country and did a lot of PA with banks of LaScalas. We were also the first dealer to have the MCM1900's. It's no wonder the hearing is toast . . .but I digress. . .

I would really love to find a way to improve the Heresy sound at low to medium listening levels. If the tunes get too loud, my ears begin ringing louder. Where can I find a schematic or more detail on your "cat's meow" mod? What would be a good amp to drive them? I'm currently using the Audionics RS-1 Preamp and CC-2 amps that were among the best SS electronics from the mid 70's. These were just a notch under the audio research SP-3 and D76.

Thanks for your help!!

Bill

[Guy Landau]

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On 2/2/2005 11:20:14 PM DeanG wrote:

I ended up listening to it for two hours, and mind you -- this was through one speaker (true mono).

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Dean,

Have you placed each speaker in front of you? Otherwise, I don't see how this tests are really valid.

Listening to two different networks simultaniosly and trying to draw conclusions.....What on earth were you smokin?

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

There are some things mentioned in these last posts that for my part are of much more concern and urgency than crossovers. I admit the last subject has been important for me, too, but, if I can say this out of concern for a fellow forum member, there are a few sentences that to me seemed to jump way out for some serious attention -- things which weren't audio/crossover related.

I would suggest an L-pad for some attenuation, but unfortunately I don't think it is the best solution, here. I think an autoformer would be just as useless, regardless of what PWK might think!

In whatever way or with whomever you can, talk and talk some more!

[Deang]

Erik. You should know I wasn't serious. It was just hyperbole!

Guy. The Heresy's are right in front of me. Each on a stand, three feet apart, and I'm about 3 or 4 feet back. I'm not listening to two different networks at the same time. There is a different network in each Heresy, The Peach is set to mono, and I use the gain controls to go back and forth between the speakers. It's very easy to hear the differences. When I move to cap evaluations, I will go to just one Heresy. I will have to mod it so I can get the board on the outside. At that point, I can change caps on the fly relatively fast. It won't take me long to tell if there are differences or not.

[Deang]

Here you go Bill.

[bhendrix]

Thank you, Dean!!

Bill

[pauln]

I think PKW deliberately voiced the high end of the Heresy 3db higher than the rest of the heritage because the tweeter is designed to be much lower to the floor - he recommended that Heresy speakers be on the floor in the corners. Now days, many listeners put them on stands to get the tweets up to ear level like the other Heritage. This makes the Heresy relatively hot because maybe they were really voiced for the floor? This might explain why so many find the best sound after mods, and may vindicate acusations that PWK was hard of hearing (a real heresy!).