Guy Landau Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Dean, You said that you've listened to "One Heresy with an ALK, the other with what amounts to being a slightly improved stock Type E" I actually meant that this test should at least be done with each speaker in the center of the room and not in each side of it. I also think that the apropriate way is to use both speakers with the same kind of network and then switch between the networks. in this manner you get more than just a feel of harshness or lack of one. You can actually hear differences in soundstage depth/width/imaging etc. When comparing amplifiers: Do you listen to one amplifier on one speaker and another type of amp on the second speaker, driven by a mono signal? Probably not. You can probably hear some differences but to get the most you'll need 2 exact amps driving a pair of the same speakers for this kind of evaluation. I think it's true to networks as well. otherwise, you're comparing apples to oranges. This is JMHO. No offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 No offense taken. "I actually meant that this test should at least be done with each speaker in the center of the room and not in each side of it." In this particular situation, "three feet apart" is almost right in front of me. I wanted to keep some distance between the speakers because I didn't want the near presence of one speaker effecting the acoustic output of the other. I also wanted to keep the horns a bit on axis with the ear(s). They are both well off the side walls. "I also think that the appropriate way is to use both speakers with the same kind of network and then switch between the networks. in this manner you get more than just a feel of harshness or lack of one. You can actually hear differences in soundstage depth/width/imaging etc." I personally didn't find it all that difficult to determine when things snapped into place. Really though, the main thing I was trying to accomplish was simply to hear how the different networks changed the sonic signature/balance of the Heresy. I figured -- first find the network that makes the Heresy sound right to you, then worry about what the different parts do or don't do. This is where I'm at now, and where I think your point has more bearing. "When comparing amplifiers: Do you listen to one amplifier on one speaker and another type of amp on the second speaker, driven by a mono signal? Probably not. You can probably hear some differences but to get the most you'll need 2 exact amps driving a pair of the same speakers for this kind of evaluation. I think it's true to networks as well. otherwise, you're comparing apples to oranges." I realize that using mono mode through the preamp with one speaker is a bit of compromise, but not as much as one might think. I personally don't believe the sonic differences in amplifiers effect the signature of a loudspeaker anywhere near what a network does. I will agree with you that I'm comparing apples to oranges, because that's exactly what it sounds like! In the end, you're right. Ideally that's how I should do it, especially for this next part. To do it right, I'll have to use switches -- how do you feel about that? Or should we trust my auditory memory while I switch speaker cables? Guess I should dig up the email from BEC when he explained how his contraption was set up. Thanks Guy. Pauln -- interesting observation. Thanks for muddying the waters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 That is what I have been wanting to hear. When you get to the point where the change can be made instantly between two things you are comparing and preferrably someone else makes the change, you will be ready to do some testing. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Dean, I realize that using mono mode through the preamp with one speaker is a bit of compromise, but not as much as one might think. I personally don't believe the sonic differences in amplifiers effect the signature of a loudspeaker anywhere near what a network does. I will agree with you that I'm comparing apples to oranges, because that's exactly what it sounds like! Your FOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Dean: Alright, thanks for letting me know. I guess I have just learned over the years to never take lightly 'certain things' folks might happen to say sort of unexpectedly or out of the blue. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a more acute situation going on. It must come from my job, or something, but I'm glad some of that was not said seriously. Good luck with these crossover experiments, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 ---------------- On 2/3/2005 11:51:07 AM pauln wrote: I think PKW deliberately voiced the high end of the Heresy 3db higher than the rest of the heritage because the tweeter is designed to be much lower to the floor - he recommended that Heresy speakers be on the floor in the corners. Now days, many listeners put them on stands to get the tweets up to ear level like the other Heritage. This makes the Heresy relatively hot because maybe they were really voiced for the floor? This might explain why so many find the best sound after mods, and may vindicate acusations that PWK was hard of hearing (a real heresy!). ---------------- ...Interesting that you mention this...I have 2 pair of Heresys...with the first set ('78s), I had been experimenting with them on the floor or about a foot off the floor angled a bit up (on stands) and found I liked them a bit better on stands...last night I got my second set of Heresys ('81)and they have the level (not angled) factory risers and I really like how they sound...a bit different than the '78s on the stands...more experimentation is warranted! Thanks, bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 Gotcha Erik. Yeah, you're around kids a lot. What age do you teach? Probably the age with the highest suicide rate in the country? It's sad. O.K. Craig. See you down in Arkansas. Bring two amps that you think sound different as night and day, and I'll bring my AK-4 networks. We'll play both amps back to back for a while, and after you're done impressing everyone -- we'll swap out Dee's Type A's with my AK-4's -- and we'll let everyone else decide what made the biggest shift in signature. Arkansas seems to be good luck for me -- so bring it on! Bob, I went back to the stock Type E configuration today with the 2uF GE caps, and sat the Heresy's on the floor. There is definitely validity to what Pauln said. The excessive brightness completely vanished -- but unfortunetly, so did the imaging. When I tipped them up, it became too much again. I really prefer the Heresy's on stands with the taps moved. Since I didn't feel like swapping caps around to do the full mod, I just added the 15 ohm resistor in parallel with the squawker, with the two GE cans still in the network. It just sounded crystal clear to me, and I sure didn't hear anything going on that made me want to jump up and replace the cans. Sounded great. I don't think I can do anything serious until I build the switching boards, it's really the only way to do it. I'll probably play around tomorrow, but I'll wait to post anything until I can make the comparisons with the "switching" boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Dean, Be sure to make one of your tests with the Heresys in corners. It's been quite awhile since I have played around with Heresy's, but for me they seem to work best in good corners. Just sound like bigger speakers there. I used to have a set of them in my 24 X 30 shop in the corners. Sounded good at 50 to 60 watts per channel. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 Audiophile n. A person who claims to hear the inaudible. A person who thinks they hear a difference -- hears a difference. The human mind is whacked. Think about things like placebos, and "phantom" pain. Think about the power of belief. Does true objectivity exist? Doesn't bias affect perception? I went through the "cable thing" a year or so ago. Everytime I changed cables or interconnects, I heard a difference. I didn't just think I heard differences, but actually heard them. After I started working with passive parts, reading about how they worked, what conductance was, and looking at those 20 gauge leads -- it dawned on me that any difference I was hearing had to be imagined. Once I convinced myself I couldn't hear the differences -- I quit hearing them. Later I was rebuilding some DQ-10's, which have a fuse at the binding posts. I had already rebuilt two sets, but had never once thought about that fuse while I was soldering in the 12 gauge wire! 12 gauge wire on one side and 12 gauge wire on the other -- with a strand bridging them together. Electricity is really cool. Corners? Where did you get that idiotic idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Dean, And more than once a customer has sent me a K-77 tweeter to try to repair after they tried to solder 10 AWG wire to its terminals and almost totally melted out all the insulation around the terminal. Most interesting about this is that they were trying to hook up that 10 AWG wire to a voice coil that is 72 inches of 40 AWG wire. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 Yeah, but just think of the improvement they would've heard if they'd got that cable on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 "When comparing amplifiers: Do you listen to one amplifier on one speaker and another type of amp on the second speaker, driven by a mono signal? Probably not. You can probably hear some differences but to get the most you'll need 2 exact amps driving a pair of the same speakers for this kind of evaluation. I think it's true to networks as well. otherwise, you're comparing apples to oranges." The ol' EE friend would apall you. He'll set up two different amps using the same sides on one speaker using like a 4 pole toggle switch or something. Instant A/B. Listen to one amp, flip the switch listen to the other. It ain't the purist thing, but it works for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurdy_gurdyman Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 ---------------- On 2/3/2005 11:51:07 AM pauln wrote: I think PKW deliberately voiced the high end of the Heresy 3db higher than the rest of the heritage because the tweeter is designed to be much lower to the floor - he recommended that Heresy speakers be on the floor in the corners. Now days, many listeners put them on stands to get the tweets up to ear level like the other Heritage. This makes the Heresy relatively hot because maybe they were really voiced for the floor? This might explain why so many find the best sound after mods, and may vindicate acusations that PWK was hard of hearing (a real heresy!). ---------------- I suspect Paul Klipsch did, indeed, design the Heresy to sit in the corners (with thin blocks under the front to tilt them back a bit.) That's where I ended up using mine. I even went so far as to lower the mids and highs on the autoformer (with resistors across the two horns). At louder listening levels it sounds just right. Best sound I've had in my house yet. They still seem to image just fine here, which really surprised me. May be because the horns are so directional as to not make much difference between out in the room and in the corner. Anyway, they are one impressive little speaker. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Where do purchase the UT 3619 autotransformer? What do they run pricewise? Are all the stock Klipsch autoformers pretty much the same, or do the impedance taps vary? I have my homebrew speakers pulled out and listening to them. I've been dealing with these little JBL 075's and padding them to match up with the woofers. The autoformer might be of some help, it's either that or L ot T pads...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 For what you're trying to do, forget the 3619 and go straight to the UT 3636. This is BEC's little jewel that he commissioned UT to make. It covers every attenuation level in the Klipsch lineup. Shoot him an email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 ---------------- On 2/3/2005 10:44:32 PM hurdy_gurdyman wrote: ---------------- On 2/3/2005 11:51:07 AM pauln wrote: I think PKW deliberately voiced the high end of the Heresy 3db higher than the rest of the heritage because the tweeter is designed to be much lower to the floor - he recommended that Heresy speakers be on the floor in the corners. Now days, many listeners put them on stands to get the tweets up to ear level like the other Heritage. This makes the Heresy relatively hot because maybe they were really voiced for the floor? This might explain why so many find the best sound after mods, and may vindicate acusations that PWK was hard of hearing (a real heresy!). ---------------- I suspect Paul Klipsch did, indeed, design the Heresy to sit in the corners (with thin blocks under the front to tilt them back a bit.) That's where I ended up using mine. I even went so far as to lower the mids and highs on the autoformer (with resistors across the two horns). At louder listening levels it sounds just right. Best sound I've had in my house yet. They still seem to image just fine here, which really surprised me. May be because the horns are so directional as to not make much difference between out in the room and in the corner. Anyway, they are one impressive little speaker. Dave ---------------- This seems to be true. When I was storing my 2 sets of Heresys, I stacked them. I always thought that the older ones (on the bottom) sounded better (less glaring). Recently, I A/B'd them (both sitting on top of a Belle) and could not hear a difference. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurdy_gurdyman Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 ---------------- On 2/3/2005 10:44:32 PM hurdy_gurdyman wrote: ---------------- On 2/3/2005 11:51:07 AM pauln wrote: I think PKW deliberately voiced the high end of the Heresy 3db higher than the rest of the heritage because the tweeter is designed to be much lower to the floor - he recommended that Heresy speakers be on the floor in the corners. Now days, many listeners put them on stands to get the tweets up to ear level like the other Heritage. This makes the Heresy relatively hot because maybe they were really voiced for the floor? This might explain why so many find the best sound after mods, and may vindicate acusations that PWK was hard of hearing (a real heresy!). ---------------- I suspect Paul Klipsch did, indeed, design the Heresy to sit in the corners (with thin blocks under the front to tilt them back a bit.) That's where I ended up using mine. I even went so far as to lower the mids and highs on the autoformer (with resistors across the two horns). At louder listening levels it sounds just right. Best sound I've had in my house yet. They still seem to image just fine here, which really surprised me. May be because the horns are so directional as to not make much difference between out in the room and in the corner. Anyway, they are one impressive little speaker. Dave ---------------- After listening to my Heresy's on the floor in the corner for several days now, I've concluded that the balance is better with the autoformer settings back in the factory position. They just sound "right" there sittin' in the corners. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 Well, I would try it, but I don't have good corners for my Heresy's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurdy_gurdyman Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 ---------------- On 2/4/2005 7:16:04 PM DeanG wrote: Well, I would try it, but I don't have good corners for my Heresy's! ---------------- Well, you could give me your K-horns and use the Heresys where they were sittin'. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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