minn_male42 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 ---------------- On 2/15/2005 5:25:17 PM DrWho wrote: ....I personally do not use a subwoofer in my HT and I get strong output down into the 20's with just two 12" drivers...the other day I had a picture fall of the wall from the bass..... ---------------- i don't care what type of amplifier that you are driving RF-7's with (or KLF-30's for that matter) or your marantz 940's, even if you put them right into the corners of your room.... there is NO WAY that they can compete with a dedicated sub on the LFE channel.... you might be getting some 20 hz or so response but it will be very pathetic compared to what a dedicated subwoofer can do with the same material... i use a mid-range subwoofer from velodyne - the CT-150 (it has been replaced by the CHT-15) and there is no way my KLF-30's can reproduce the low frequencies as well or as easily as the sub can.... and this is with a carver professional ZR1000 amp pushing them (225 watts per channel)... http://www.carverpro.com/zrampmodels.html it is easy for main speakers to knock stuff off the wall.... but it is not from the very low frequencies around 20 hz.... it IS from the response you are getting at 40 hz - which your speakers can reproduce much more easily... you seem to have some experience in the pro music business.... but frankly, you need to do some serious reading and research on home theater applications.... you are way out of your league here with your comments on using a sub in home theater.... ask around on this forum.... or any forum that you care to.... and see how many people agree with your position.... you'll find yourself very much alone.... it's a good thing that you're still in college.... maybe by the time you graduate you will have it figured out!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 "Win, I think part of the problem with a single large driver verses two smaller ones given that the cone area, cabinet and other variables are the same, is more to do with the slower speed the larger driver responds to input(?)" No. Extra speed in a driver means more extended highs, not better bass. Note too that the very characteristics that will give a driver more "speed"- more powerful motor or lighter cone, will tend to cause bass to roll-off higher. What gives some folks an impression of "fast" bass is actually a lack of bass. Others, such as basshorn advocates, respond well to good damping and low distortion. Others, such as sealed box advocates, respond well to good damping and high distortion. And others, such as vented box advocates, respond well to so-so damping and low distortion. Pick your poison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 You know, while we're at it, there's no way I think that RF-7 is going flat to 32hz AND 102db efficient AND in that small box. Not in an anechoic chamber, no way. Maybe with corner placement and lots of room lift. I'll betcha the RF-7 starts rolling off around 50-70hz anechoic if it's really a 102 db speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underhanded Penguin Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Drivers aren't the only design factor to affect how low the fequency range of a speaker is. There are many designs with 10" drivers that can play very low. Even lower than some 12" driver designs. It's what the speaker design is tuned to. I'm sure they could have made the RF-7 with a lower frequency extension. They would have had to make other design trade offs though such as (possibly): increased internal cabinet volume, additional cross bracing, increased cost, larger motor structure 'better' 10" drivers, compromising midrange quality, different crossovers, etc etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 My friend with the KLF30's bought them supposedly with a modified Xover on board. As the source of that info is not always reliable we kinda took it with a pinch of salt. Thing is - he got a test disk from some magazine over here that used some trick to enable the a DVD player to play back a 5 Hz tone. That is 5 Hz!!! Guess what - we couldnt hear it - but we sure could feel it - made everyone feel quite nauseous except his girlfriend who did actually puke. Now I know there are a lot of questions about this - like was the 5 Hz real, and are the Xover's modded or not - but the effect was...well....horrible. I have heard 20 Hz tones (well felt them really) from my old REL Strata 3 sub and it was NOTHING like this. According to the little I know about speakers (having at least built a moderate pair) the combo of Box size and sensitivity when referring to a KLF 30 makes 5 Hz impossible - hell 20 is impossible at -3dB. Never been able to explain it - and never wanted to repeat the experiment! turns KLF 30's from a speaker into a weapon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Penguin---Of course 10s can be made to play very low. But not efficiently in small boxes. What you don't seem to understand is that there's a relationship between bass response, efficiency and box size. Deep bass High efficiency Small box Pick any two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 RF-7's are measured in 1/8 space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 ---------------- On 2/16/2005 9:11:37 AM maxg wrote: ...to enable the a DVD player to play back a 5 Hz tone. That is 5 Hz!!! Guess what - we couldnt hear it - but we sure could feel it - made everyone feel quite nauseous except his girlfriend who did actually puke. ---------------- Could it be overtones or harmonic distortion? We heard some pronounced subwoofer overtones of some sort on a non-Klipsch subwoofer, at one of the Indy day sessions. Just within the overtone series, the 5 could produce 10, 15 and 20 Hz, for starters. I'd guess 5 Hz could mostly be sensed in the chest wall, while moving above 10 would become audible with increasing ability to identify pitches as the frequency rises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 ---------------- On 2/16/2005 12:04:59 PM LarryC wrote: ---------------- On 2/16/2005 9:11:37 AM maxg wrote: ...to enable the a DVD player to play back a 5 Hz tone. That is 5 Hz!!! Guess what - we couldnt hear it - but we sure could feel it - made everyone feel quite nauseous except his girlfriend who did actually puke. ---------------- Could it be overtones or harmonic distortion? We heard some pronounced subwoofer overtones of some sort on a non-Klipsch subwoofer, at one of the Indy day sessions. Just within the overtone series, the 5 could produce 10, 15 and 20 Hz, for starters. I'd guess 5 Hz could mostly be sensed in the chest wall, while moving above 10 would become audible with increasing ability to identify pitches as the frequency rises. ---------------- overtones are tones generated ABOVE a fundamental frequency.... you cannot generate an "overtone" down to 5 hz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Must be an undertone then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 In noting my preference for 10" drivers, The Traynor Bass cabinet is definitively larger. In also asking the low frequencies in a home 2 x 10" sub, I would be prepared to give up room. Using the same Traynor head I've tried 2 and 4 15"ers, 4 and 6 12"ers. The quality of the output is more compelling. The cabinet is taller and wider than what anyone would call average. The other part that will help a bass guitar is wire wound strings. A fiasco I do remember is the fiberglass wound strings. Did not take long for the coating to break down and start putting fiberglass in the fingers. Dr. Who: Have you tried a 3 mic set up. One taller than the cabinet for the 18" but aimed down, one in the center of the 10" cabinet - cardoid pattern aimed away, the third being 38.4" away, level, at the point of where the cabinets meet. The third can be a kick drum mic. That is a thought having tried kick drum mics on a bass guitar before. Terry Britton has had luck using a 2 mic system for multi cabinet/different size drivers. I'm curious as to a third. That being for the additional ambiance. EDITED added last sentence. Normally I believe in as few mics, as little processing as possible. Angling microphones by guitar amps has sounded nice without being dry. Granted your chances for distortion can be higher, but using say an Ampeg with its own equalizer, it can be done - there the bassist has to learn their parameters. For Edwin and Tom, part of it is the speed of the driver along with a large cabinet. You have to watch for some higher tones, but the bass itself adds - pickup style, placement, 2 fingers and thumb vs pick. Even the size of the Pick guard as in the Fender Strat sound - somewhat plastic pick-guard influenced. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 minn, per Max's post 5 Hz WAS the fundamental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 ---------------- overtones are tones generated ABOVE a fundamental frequency.... you cannot generate an "overtone" down to 5 hz ---------------- Correct. Max said it was a 5 Hz note. I was suggesting that he might have been hearing a 10 or 15 Hz overtone (or other artifact) generated from a 5 Hz fundamental. Fanciful without a doubt, but I believe I said it right. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 ---------------- On 2/16/2005 6:13:15 PM Olorin wrote: minn, per Max's post 5 Hz WAS the fundamental. ---------------- i know.... but when larry mentioned overtones i felt it was appropriate to clear up any possible confusion.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 ---------------- On 2/16/2005 5:06:38 PM dodger wrote: In noting my preference for 10" drivers, The Traynor Bass cabinet is definitively larger. In also asking the low frequencies in a home 2 x 10" sub, I would be prepared to give up room. Using the same Traynor head I've tried 2 and 4 15"ers, 4 and 6 12"ers. The quality of the output is more compelling. The cabinet is taller and wider than what anyone would call average. The other part that will help a bass guitar is wire wound strings. A fiasco I do remember is the fiberglass wound strings. Did not take long for the coating to break down and start putting fiberglass in the fingers. Dr. Who: Have you tried a 3 mic set up. One taller than the cabinet for the 18" but aimed down, one in the center of the 10" cabinet - cardoid pattern aimed away, the third being 38.4" away, level, at the point of where the cabinets meet. The third can be a kick drum mic. That is a thought having tried kick drum mics on a bass guitar before. Terry Britton has had luck using a 2 mic system for multi cabinet/different size drivers. I'm curious as to a third. That being for the additional ambiance. EDITED added last sentence. Normally I believe in as few mics, as little processing as possible. Angling microphones by guitar amps has sounded nice without being dry. Granted your chances for distortion can be higher, but using say an Ampeg with its own equalizer, it can be done - there the bassist has to learn their parameters. For Edwin and Tom, part of it is the speed of the driver along with a large cabinet. You have to watch for some higher tones, but the bass itself adds - pickup style, placement, 2 fingers and thumb vs pick. Even the size of the Pick guard as in the Fender Strat sound - somewhat plastic pick-guard influenced. dodger ---------------- I've tried the 3 mic pickup like you mention but the problem is that the rooms I'm recording in are far from ideal...so I'm not exactly after the 3rd mic ambience. I also forgot to mention that this guy uses two tweeters in his setup as well; one in the 18" cabinet and one between the two 10's. If you've ever mic'ed a tweeter, then you'll know how hard it is to avoid that harsh sound (btw, the guy is an electrical engineer and built his own crossovers which are rather complex to get it all to work). He is very picky about hearing amp hiss in the background too which means I have to keep me mics away from his tweeters. I mean, I can get a decent sound of his rig (even he's satisfied), but I'm yet to get a recording that captures the true aspects of his rig/playing. He's one of those bass players that I wish I could fit him in my pocket and show the idiot bass players that I work with most of the time what a true bass should sound like. I know of one other decent bass player that gets a very similar sound with 4 10's and lots of compression (though he fits better in heavy metal bands). talk about off topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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