The RF-7's are great, but what if?

[GeorgeV]

This question is primarily for the site admins.

Has Klipsch every thought of designing a Reference Series speaker with dual 12 inch woofers as an upgrade to the RF-7's. I know the Reference Premiere Series is set to debut sometime this year and it will be a 3-way design. But, from what I have read it will use dual 10 inch woofers as well. I would be very interest in the dual 12 inch design, since I like deep rich bass in my music. I know I could add a sub woofer to complement my RF-7's to achieve the same results.

Possibly a 12 inch woofer design is not feasible; it may cost too much to manufacture, the cabinet may just be too large and heavy or there may not be a market for it.

I would be very interested in an answer from Klipsch. Thank you.

[Deang]

The problem is one more related to size. With so many now using full blown entertainment wall units and large televisions, most simply don't have the room for something that size. With the advent of powerful subwoofers (which can be placed almost anywhere), it's just no longer necessary to build large enclosures with large drivers to generate the low bass. It's a 'smarter' design to build a speaker that excels in the midrange and midbass -- and offload the rest to a unit specifically designed for superior LF performance.

[GeorgeV]

Thanks for the answer Dean.

[minn_male42]

----------------

On 2/13/2005 10:55:10 AM GeorgeV wrote:

This question is primarily for the site admins.

Has Klipsch every thought of designing a Reference Series speaker with dual 12 inch woofers as an upgrade to the RF-7's. I know the Reference Premiere Series is set to debut sometime this year and it will be a 3-way design. But, from what I have read it will use dual 10 inch woofers as well. I would be very interest in the dual 12 inch design, since I like deep rich bass in my music. I know I could add a sub woofer to complement my RF-7's to achieve the same results.

Possibly a 12 inch woofer design is not feasible; it may cost too much to manufacture, the cabinet may just be too large and heavy or there may not be a market for it.

I would be very interested in an answer from Klipsch. Thank you.

----------------

Klipsch has been there - done that with the RF-7 predecessor - the KLF-30!!!

2 twelve inch woofers with a midrange horn and a tweeter horn..... but Dean is right - the home theater market is demanding narrower cabinets...

[maxg]

If you are really keen on the idea of dual 12 inch woofers check out the KLF 30. 4 12 inchers really pack a punch - sensitivity is the same as the RF7 @ 102 db/w/m.

A friend has them in his home theatre - they do VERY LOUD INDEED and have masses of BASS!!!

They come up from time to time on ebay - a much cheaper option than buying new RF7's (or RF8's?).

Just a thought...

[maxg]

MM - you beat me by about 30 seconds I guess.

[minn_male42]

----------------

On 2/14/2005 9:19:56 AM maxg wrote:

MM - you beat me by about 30 seconds I guess.

----------------

max is right about being cheaper... i bought my pair of KLF-30's at a local pawn shop for $600!!!!

i did need to replace a midrange driver but that was only $65 direct from klipsch....

[GeorgeV]

Thanks for the responses.

Yes, I have thought about the KLF-30's. Which is one of the reasons I posted this question. If Klipsch has plans for a dual 12 inch reference line, that will be my first choice. After this the 30's will be my second choice.

[lynnm]

FWIW

I was able to A/B the RF7 against KLF30s with the same amplification and source .....Both are breathtakingly good. I bought the KLFs partly because as a discontinued line they were much less expensive but frankly at the time I could have bought either and I actually liked the 30s better because of their overall bass impact.

Lest anyone get excited/defensive the difference was in the Rolls-Royce vs. Bentley tradition...Not having heard Klipsch for a dogs age at that time...One or the other was going home with me that day and had I preferred the 7 over the 30 I would have paid the difference but If for some reason the 30's were unavailable I would have hauled the 7's home with the infamous ****eating grin!

I have since sold the 30s and purchased a pair of Khorns and love them but I have to admit that I sometimes miss the slam of the 30s...but rarely as I listen mostly to jazz and very little rock. If you are a rocker RF7s or KLF30s may well be the better choice for you.

[edwinr]

I would imagine that any re-engineering of the RF7 to accept 12 inch drivers would be more orientated to increasing overall speaker sensitvity with all the benefits this would impart. In fact If I remember from the KLF specs, the KLF 10 with 10 inch driver actually reached lower than the KLF30. The KLF30 though, had higher sensitivity.

[DrWho]

The crossover on the RF-7 between the woofers and the horn is at 2200Hz which is insanely high for a 12" driver to achieve. Some might even argue that a 10" driver is a bit on the large size too, but Klipsch gets away with it because of their fancy cerametallic cones. You'll notice that the KLF-30 crosses over at 800Hz. Then at 32Hz, it's not like the RF-7 isn't digging low. There really aren't that many subs that will give you bang for the buck extension down below 30Hz anyway.

[minn_male42]

----------------

On 2/15/2005 2:53:14 AM DrWho wrote:

......Then at 32Hz, it's not like the RF-7 isn't digging low. There really aren't that many subs that will give you bang for the buck extension down below 30Hz anyway.

----------------

what???

just about EVERY good quality home theater sub will give you good output below 30 hz!!!

i'm not sure what you mean by the term "bang for the buck extension"

here is the entry level SVS PB10-ISD subwoofer that sells for $429.... check out the following review that did a RTA of the sub's performance

"The PB10-ISD frequency response measured an almost unbelievable ± 1 dB from 19 Hz - 150 Hz."

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

sure sounds like a pretty good "bang for the buck extension below 30 hz"

[minn_male42]

btw - that was just the first sub that i looked up online.... i'm sure there are many more if you look at hsu, velodyne, revel, and many other brands

[GeorgeV]

----------------

On 2/15/2005 2:53:14 AM DrWho wrote:

The crossover on the RF-7 between the woofers and the horn is at 2200Hz which is insanely high for a 12"; driver to achieve. Some might even argue that a 10"; driver is a bit on the large size too, but Klipsch gets away with it because of their fancy cerametallic cones. You'll notice that the KLF-30 crosses over at 800Hz. Then at 32Hz, it's not like the RF-7 isn't digging low. There really aren't that many subs that will give you bang for the buck extension down below 30Hz anyway.

----------------

Valid point, I didn't consider this.

[Dylanl]

I think the Epic CF4 also had larger drivers. I almost pulled the trigger on these once. The horn is between the 2 woofers. They at least look cool.

[DrWho]

----------------

On 2/15/2005 7:44:26 AM minn_male42 wrote:

what???

just about EVERY good quality home theater sub will give you good output below 30 hz!!!

i'm not sure what you mean by the term "bang for the buck extension"

----------------

Max output on that sub is "only" 104dB though. Perhaps I'm asking too much when I don't consider anything that can't do at least 115dB. By bang for the buck, I would have a hard time justifying spending an extra $1000 just to get an extra 10Hz of response. The RF-7 is measured in an anechoic chamber anyway, so it's bound to exhibit the effects of room gain too. The khorn is rated down to 32Hz, but Artto gets good solid output down to 19Hz thanks to the acoustics of his room.

[minn_male42]

----------------

On 2/15/2005 11:36:17 AM DrWho wrote:

----------------

On 2/15/2005 7:44:26 AM minn_male42 wrote:

what???

just about EVERY good quality home theater sub will give you good output below 30 hz!!!

i'm not sure what you mean by the term "bang for the buck extension"

----------------

Max output on that sub is "only" 104dB though. Perhaps I'm asking too much when I don't consider anything that can't do at least 115dB. By bang for the buck, I would have a hard time justifying spending an extra $1000 just to get an extra 10Hz of response. The RF-7 is measured in an anechoic chamber anyway, so it's bound to exhibit the effects of room gain too. The khorn is rated down to 32Hz, but Artto gets good solid output down to 19Hz thanks to the acoustics of his room.

----------------

really??

i guess that the dolby digital standard of 105 db output isn't good enough for you then...

and the sub i quoted above is simply an entry level sub for $429...

for about $1500 or so you can get this sub which gives you 116 db in room response with a frequency response down to 16 hz...

http://www.sunfire.com/TrueSubwooferEQSigPR.htm

for two channel use a sub with these speakers is not really necessary, but if you don't use a sub in a home theater application, then you are really missing out..... i am not aware of ANY speaker (including a k-horn) that can do justice to a demanding LFE channel

[dodger]

Two 10 inch drivers can do a respectable job.

I've played bass guitar since my early teens. For the past 30 years I've used a made September 19, 1963 Fender Precision Bass. Low 'E' but at times tuned lower and bridge adjustment.

The amplifier I have stayed with has been a Traynor 200 watt with eight 10 inch drivers. Tried 4 or even 6 15 inch drivers, the eight tens consistently gave better output, lower frequencies when need.

The found the right drivers, right size cabinet, proper excursion, etc. Have not blown a speaker. Tried an Acoustic brand single 18" driver. One could hear the doubling.

While I would bot be thrilled with smaller drivers, the 8 10s give me what is needed Ampeg, Mackie, Crate have all come up with a multi 10" speaker and cabinet.

It can be done.

dodger

[edwinr]

Win, I think part of the problem with a single large driver verses two smaller ones given that the cone area, cabinet and other variables are the same, is more to do with the slower speed the larger driver responds to input(?)

[DrWho]

----------------

On 2/15/2005 11:57:25 AM minn_male42 wrote:

really??

i guess that the dolby digital standard of 105 db output isn't good enough for you then...

and the sub i quoted above is simply an entry level sub for $429...

for about $1500 or so you can get this sub which gives you 116 db in room response with a frequency response down to 16 hz...

http://www.sunfire.com/TrueSubwooferEQSigPR.htm

for two channel use a sub with these speakers is not really necessary, but if you don't use a sub in a home theater application, then you are really missing out..... i am not aware of ANY speaker (including a k-horn) that can do justice to a demanding LFE channel

----------------

Isn't the THX standard something like 120dB at 30Hz? Or was it 130dB at 30Hz? I forget and I've never heard of the dolby standard before. Anyways, I said a $1000 was too much already so 1500 is outta the question My point was that there really weren't that many subs with insane performance for a good price...this is relative to the hundreds upon hundreds of models that aren't even close. That's not to say that they don't exist, just that you can probably count them all with your fingers (maybe a few toes might be needed too). I would be interested to know the distortion levels of those subwoofers as well...a 12" driver will need about 3 times the excursion than the four 10" drivers in the RF-7 for the same SPL. A single 15" will need a little under double the excursion. Then again, I'm still in college which means $1000 is probably more to me than others with good jobs.

I feel the reason subs are good for movies is because you have the opportunity to boost those bass frequencies a good 20-30 dB which either compensates for bass lacking material, or helps keep the bass shaking the room at lower volumes. (note that the fletcher munson charts show that at 70dB we need a good 30dB boost in the low lows for it to be the same loudness). I personally do not use a subwoofer in my HT and I get strong output down into the 20's with just two 12" drivers...the other day I had a picture fall of the wall from the bass.

Really, a properly integrated sub should improve the midrange since it lowers the cone excursion of the mains (lower frequency modulation distortion). That extra 10Hz is only going to express itself in explosions in movies that record it at volumes that low. Also keep in mind that the RF-7 does have useable output below 30Hz...it's probably about -12dB at 20Hz. The majority of content in both music and video have no information below 35Hz...one major reason is anything below that tends to sound very awful on cheaper sound systems. No 8" woofer is going to be able to handle those kind of frequencies so the producers (especially during the mastering process) will make the bass sound like it's deep while keeping it in the higher frequencies...our ears hear the overtones and percieve them as being lower than they actually are. LOTR on the other hand easily digs well below 20Hz

In the past klipsch made the RP lineup which was basically the RB series put into a tower with a powered 15" subwoofer in it...I don't think the lineup did very well because they've stopped building it.

Re dodger:

I too have found that the 10" driver bass rigs tend to sound the best as well. I think it has more to do with the distortion characteristics of the smaller drivers (the distortion harmonics would be in higher registers). My favorite bass player (that I know personally) has a rig with 4 10" aluminum drivers paired with an 18" cabinet below it. He gets the twangiest bass I've ever heard and with a thunderous lowend to go with it. The only reason he has the 18" cabinet is to help get that lowend power to project. I wish I could capture the true sound of his rig on a recording (i'm yet to find a strategy that works...though I think the rooms I've been recording in are the limiting factors). For the record, he's using the Carvin R1000 to drive his rig.